dzzmiller said:
Hello dzzmiller!
Hopefully to realise this is an Ad Hominem and I believe ---{although I may be mistaken}--- it's the fallacy known as Appeal to Authority. Just because Linkwitz has an extensive electronics background, it does not automatically make him an authority on expensive cables and exotic products. For all we know Linkwitz could be tone deaf! I'm not saying his is but, we don't know what his actual hearing ability is do we?
I know for a fact that Linkwitz admitted on his own website that he addressed a problem with his Orion speakers that he never heard until a friend pointed it out to him. In fact even after it was pointed out to him, Linkwitz couldn't hear it at first! Dr Linkwitz said and I quote ""My longtime collaborator and former recording engineer of the US Marine Band, Don Barringer, has over the years helped me to evaluate my designs. I have learned to trust his observations even when I sometimes cannot immediately hear what he noticed. He brings a musician's and performer's background to my concert-goer's experience. It has always been a healthy exchange where we try to keep each other honest.'
What's particularly interesting is:
1) Dr Linkwitz didn't hear the sound in question in his own system which he was intimately famliar with.
2) Sometimes Dr Linkwitz could not hear the sound in question even after it was pointed out to him! Which is confirmed with these words of his "...I sometimes cannot immediately hear what he noticed."
3) Dr Linkwitz didn't demand the person proof what he heard via a DBT but rather trusted the man's ears!
Perhaps with such a respected objectivist like Dr Linkwitz admitting another person heard something he couldn't and sometimes even after it's pointed out to him, he cannot immediately hear what the other person heard. Then maybe, just maybe this will encourage other objectivists to accept the fact others can sometimes hear things they don't, even on their own systems. Maybe, just maybe, these objectivists will begin to believe when someone comments about a sound they cannot hear now and might not immediately notice after it's been pointed out to them. Maybe they'll realise: 1) it doesn't mean the other person is deluding themself, 2) it doesn't mean the other person is convincing themself they're hearing a sound that doesn't exist and most importantly 3) it doesn't mean the other person is claiming they have "super-hearing" abilities.
All it means is: just like with running, seeing, jumping, smelling, swimming and virtually everything else in life, some are better than others at that task and everyone improves with practice and a real desire to do so...
This is a link to Dr Linkwitz statement so everyone can see it wasn't taken out of context. http://linkwitzlab.com/orion-rev1.htm
Thetubeguy1954
But there are decent engineering reasons behind why Dr Linkwitz did what he did, not magic floobydust stuff. So it is irrelevant whether someone else pointed it out or not. Now it Dr L had suddenly started advocating Brilliant Pebbles or some such, then maybe your argument would have been valid.
"All it means is: just like with running, seeing, jumping, smelling, swimming and virtually everything else in life, some are better than others at that task and everyone improves with practice and a real desire to do so..."
Well there are just physical and genetic differences that can be a limiting factor. For instance I am just shy of 6 feet tall and weigh about 160 pounds. Do you think I have a good shot at becoming a Sumo Wrestler? With enough determination and practice?
I had a music theory teacher suggest that Eastern cultures actually have a much more precise perception of tonality than western cultures because of there genetic makeup - the ability to accurately hear and perform micro-tonal music or music that divides the spectrum into more notes than 12.
Well there are just physical and genetic differences that can be a limiting factor. For instance I am just shy of 6 feet tall and weigh about 160 pounds. Do you think I have a good shot at becoming a Sumo Wrestler? With enough determination and practice?
I had a music theory teacher suggest that Eastern cultures actually have a much more precise perception of tonality than western cultures because of there genetic makeup - the ability to accurately hear and perform micro-tonal music or music that divides the spectrum into more notes than 12.
O gosh, what's one guys "nano" or "quantum", is another guys "genetics".
Blahblahblah without any evidential backup.
At least - he only suggested.
Haha well his "evidence" was that music that strayed from the diatonic scale sounded like gobbely goop to his ears.
Appeal to what?
Seems you use the same Appeal To Authority argument to first discredit dzzmiller, and yet then use Linkwitz's guru Barringer to affirm the quality of said authority, indirectly implied in your argument.... Which do you want us to believe? That Barringer "know's more" about the sound, or that neither he nor Linkwitz have the "Authority" to pronounce on subtleties of reproduced music and "cable anomalies".
Looks strawman-ish to me 😕
John L.
thetubeguy1954 said:
Seems you use the same Appeal To Authority argument to first discredit dzzmiller, and yet then use Linkwitz's guru Barringer to affirm the quality of said authority, indirectly implied in your argument.... Which do you want us to believe? That Barringer "know's more" about the sound, or that neither he nor Linkwitz have the "Authority" to pronounce on subtleties of reproduced music and "cable anomalies".
Looks strawman-ish to me 😕
John L.
SY said:
i wouldn't say it's 'entirely' different. they are both the result of waves interacting with each other. that kind of phase cancellation/reinforcement sounds 'hollow'. i have comb and notch filters to play with, although i don't use them much. when you can simply turn one on, and listen to it, it is easier to identify it's character. it is something you wouldn't necessarily notice if it was subtle, so i take it back that it is 'easy' to hear. it is possible, though, and easy if the phase problems are extreme.
mwaters10 said:
I just used that post to refer to the issue that I started. Sorry if I sounded 'cranky' but it can get annoying if someone always trying to distort what you say.
mwaters10 said:
I've spend a lot of time, money and have done lots of tests to try and make my system to sound as realistic as possible. I don't regret any of it, I've learned a lot and I enjoy doing it. I will carry on for as long as I am able to make it sound better.
There are well recorded music available that can sound very realistic on a good system. These make the effort worthwhile and I believe the time will come when more quality recordings will be made.
Andre Visser said:
Yes,but tell someone you can hear better than he can 😀 I am almost convinced that hearing has nothing to do with sound.
Brett said:
You are also trying to distort what was said, fact is that some are better (I believe by training) at hearing differences or faults in music reproduction than other. Another factor may also be that our brain will adapt to a known system, it is always good to hear someone elses comments.
OK, then you don't know what "all-pass" means. The frequency response in the tests are held flat, not notched, combed, or anything else.
mwaters10 said:
mw, this is disrespectful and in bad taste. This is also the second time you have been asked to cooperate with the rules around here. Strike three and whoops, he disappears. Please don't take these warnings lightly if you wish to continue on this site.
Email me directly if you wish to discuss this further. I am away until tomorrow if you decide to do so.
Panicos K said:
I believe our ears detect far more information than what our brain 'reveal'. By training we can teach the brain to 'reveal' more information. This is a learning process like anything else, the more you do it the more you will detect, the more you learn......
Much like learning to drive a car, in the beginning you have to concentrate on the basics, later that are done by the subconscious and you can concentrate on other things again and so on.
But did Linkwitz ever directly address cables? Why yes he did. I'll add a little bold type:
Q10 - What cables and interconnects do you recommend?
A10 - I prefer not to recommend any specific product. Cables can have audible effects and some manufacturers make sure they will, either through unusual electrical parameters and/or by suggestion. Weaknesses in the design of the output-to-input interface are exploited. In any case, sounding different does not automatically mean that you now have a more accurate transfer from electrical to acoustical output.
Realize that for an active speaker, such as the ORION, each power amplifier merely sees a voice coil, either of the tweeter, midrange or woofer driver, and that is an easy load. With the lack of passive crossover filter components the speaker cable capacitance and inductance will have insignificant influence upon the voltage across the voice coil over its used frequency band.
My guideline for speaker cables is to keep their resistance to less than 0.1 ohm for the roundtrip path of the current. This defines the maximum length of a 2-conductor copper cable for different wire gauges.
Wire gauge Max. length in feet
18 8
16 12
14 20
12 30
8 80
I measured the 16 gauge Megacable from Radio Shack (278-1270) that I use. A 10 foot length has 0.07 ohm resistance, 714 pF of capacitance and 1.9 uH of inductance. The line impedance is 51 ohm. A typical tweeter has a voice coil resistance of 4.7 ohm and 50 uH inductance. At 20 kHz this yields an impedance of about |4.7 + j6.3| = 7.9 ohm. Add to this the cable inductance of j0.24 ohm, and 0.07 ohm resistance for 10 feet, and the impedance becomes 8.09 ohm. This causes a 7.9/8.09 = 0.98 or 0.17 dB reduction in tweeter output at 20 kHz, which is insignificant. The cable effect is even less at lower frequencies.
Speaker cables can act as antennas in the AM frequency band and may cause distortion in the output stage of a solid-state amplifier, if strong radio frequency signals are present. In particular, the cable capacitance in conjunction with the inductance of a driver voice coil may form a resonant circuit for these frequencies. The resonance can be suppressed by placing a series R-C circuit of 10 ohm/2 W and 0.33 uF/100 V across the cable terminals at the speaker end.
Coaxial interconnects with phono (RCA) plugs tend to pick up radio frequencies in the FM band. The currents that are induced in the cable shield must not be allowed to enter the inside of the coax. This requires a very low resistance connection between the outer conductor of the phono connector and the chassis (signal ground) of the equipment that it plugs into. The continuity and low resistance of the shield is also very important for hum and buzz currents, so that they will not induce a voltage on the center conductor. The technical description for this is the Transfer Impedance of the cable and connectors, which must be in the low milli-ohm range. Unfortunately I have not seen this specification used by the audio industry. An excellent description of the theory and treatment of hum and buzz problems in equipment setups with mixed two and three prong AC plugs is given in AN-004 by Jensen Transformers, Inc. I have not found balanced interconnections to be necessary for the high level circuits past the preamplifier. But sometimes it requires to experiment with AC outlets in different locations to reduce to insignificant level the buzz that one may hear with the ear close to the speaker cone. So, when choosing a coaxial audio interconnect look for good mechanical construction, direct contact between shield and connector, and well plated contact surfaces.
I find what is needed at Radio Shack. I solder speaker cables to terminal strips on the speaker end and use dual in-line banana plugs on the amplifier end.
Q10 - What cables and interconnects do you recommend?
A10 - I prefer not to recommend any specific product. Cables can have audible effects and some manufacturers make sure they will, either through unusual electrical parameters and/or by suggestion. Weaknesses in the design of the output-to-input interface are exploited. In any case, sounding different does not automatically mean that you now have a more accurate transfer from electrical to acoustical output.
Realize that for an active speaker, such as the ORION, each power amplifier merely sees a voice coil, either of the tweeter, midrange or woofer driver, and that is an easy load. With the lack of passive crossover filter components the speaker cable capacitance and inductance will have insignificant influence upon the voltage across the voice coil over its used frequency band.
My guideline for speaker cables is to keep their resistance to less than 0.1 ohm for the roundtrip path of the current. This defines the maximum length of a 2-conductor copper cable for different wire gauges.
Wire gauge Max. length in feet
18 8
16 12
14 20
12 30
8 80
I measured the 16 gauge Megacable from Radio Shack (278-1270) that I use. A 10 foot length has 0.07 ohm resistance, 714 pF of capacitance and 1.9 uH of inductance. The line impedance is 51 ohm. A typical tweeter has a voice coil resistance of 4.7 ohm and 50 uH inductance. At 20 kHz this yields an impedance of about |4.7 + j6.3| = 7.9 ohm. Add to this the cable inductance of j0.24 ohm, and 0.07 ohm resistance for 10 feet, and the impedance becomes 8.09 ohm. This causes a 7.9/8.09 = 0.98 or 0.17 dB reduction in tweeter output at 20 kHz, which is insignificant. The cable effect is even less at lower frequencies.
Speaker cables can act as antennas in the AM frequency band and may cause distortion in the output stage of a solid-state amplifier, if strong radio frequency signals are present. In particular, the cable capacitance in conjunction with the inductance of a driver voice coil may form a resonant circuit for these frequencies. The resonance can be suppressed by placing a series R-C circuit of 10 ohm/2 W and 0.33 uF/100 V across the cable terminals at the speaker end.
Coaxial interconnects with phono (RCA) plugs tend to pick up radio frequencies in the FM band. The currents that are induced in the cable shield must not be allowed to enter the inside of the coax. This requires a very low resistance connection between the outer conductor of the phono connector and the chassis (signal ground) of the equipment that it plugs into. The continuity and low resistance of the shield is also very important for hum and buzz currents, so that they will not induce a voltage on the center conductor. The technical description for this is the Transfer Impedance of the cable and connectors, which must be in the low milli-ohm range. Unfortunately I have not seen this specification used by the audio industry. An excellent description of the theory and treatment of hum and buzz problems in equipment setups with mixed two and three prong AC plugs is given in AN-004 by Jensen Transformers, Inc. I have not found balanced interconnections to be necessary for the high level circuits past the preamplifier. But sometimes it requires to experiment with AC outlets in different locations to reduce to insignificant level the buzz that one may hear with the ear close to the speaker cone. So, when choosing a coaxial audio interconnect look for good mechanical construction, direct contact between shield and connector, and well plated contact surfaces.
I find what is needed at Radio Shack. I solder speaker cables to terminal strips on the speaker end and use dual in-line banana plugs on the amplifier end.
SY said:
sorry. i was skimming, and read 'phase' and jumped to conclusions. doing the test for myself, now.
SY, just to come back to the listening test, will it be a problem to use my wife to keep score and my son to change the cables according to a sequence he determined beforehand? The two will not see each other, I will leave the room while my son change the cables and he can leave before I enter again.
Will two cables be OK or do you suggest that I use three? I have two different brands of coaxial cables and one shielded twisted pair (which I use at the moment) available. All of them copper but I can organise a set of silver cable also. Is it OK if I identify the cables by name or do you want a description of the sound?
André
Will two cables be OK or do you suggest that I use three? I have two different brands of coaxial cables and one shielded twisted pair (which I use at the moment) available. All of them copper but I can organise a set of silver cable also. Is it OK if I identify the cables by name or do you want a description of the sound?
André
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