terry j said:
Hello Terry.
I'm sorry but I haven't been following this thread very closely. Perhaps I can help you in your search of a subjectivist that's "willing to put up" but I'm not 100% postive as I don't yet know what it is you'd be asking of me. Soley for the purpose of allowing you to know what my beliefs are concerning audio I'll provide you with this following information....
I consider myself to be a rational subjectivist. What I mean by rational subjectivist is I believe there should be a scientifically valid, repeatedly verifiable, reason for everything we hear in regards to our audio systems. I don't ---{as some objectivists disparagingly claim about subjectivists}--- believe I have superhuman hearing capabilities, nor do I not believe in the validity of science.
I've been involved in the audio hobby approx 40 years now and I consider the sound of live, unamplified instruments & singers, in a given acoustical space, to be the reference standard we should attempt to emulate. As it's impossible to know what space most music was recorded in as well as knowing where the mics were placed in that space, I believe one most attend as many events of live, unamplified instruments & singers, in as many different acoustical spaces as possible in order to educate their ear/brain as to the sound of these live, unamplified instruments & singers in as many different types of spaces as possible.
I've seen enough instances of components that measure well but replicate music poorly as well as components that measure less well but replicate wonderfully, to know most measurements & specs do little in explaining how well a component will replicate what I consider to be the reference standard! Thus I've come to rely on my ears as being the final arbitrator of how well an audio component replicates the sound of live, unamplified instruments & singers, in a given acoustical space.
This article http://www.zainea.com/multidimensionalaudio.htm by Henning Moller, Bruel & Kjaer entitled: Multidimensional Audio ---{I realise the article is a bit dated and better ways of measuring exist today}--- explains about the concept of listening/examing audio via either a global fashion or a local fashion. I believe this is probably the reason why most of the measurements used today don't correlate well with what we are hearing as audiophiles/music lovers. I also believe if this view was actually applied and measurements became more global in nature the gap between objectivists & subjectivists would shrink greatly!
OK Terry now that you're armed with this knowledge about myself and my audio beliefs the tumbleweeds and wind has blown thru a town of a subjectivist that's "willing to put up" depending of course on what you're asking of me and whether or not I can provide you with what you want. I'll end this all by telling you I've offered to "prove" to anyone who cares to witness it, I can detect differences in ICs, sight unseen! I'm NOT demanding anyone has to come, however if they should ever happen to be visiting the Orlando, Fla area on vacation and they are willing to come to my home one afternoon. I can provide the proof they claim no one is capable of providing! Strangely enough in the almost 3-4 years I've been making that open offer not one objectivist has been willing to put me to the test! I suppose it's only because no objectivists have visited the Orlando, Fla area on vacation these past 3-4 years...
Thetubeguy1954
hi tube guy
being on the other side of the world unfortunately I doubt we will ever get together.
good on you for being willing, I really do hope that your offer is taken up. Not for one side to win or lose, but hey rather than talking about it ad nauseum let's make it progress.
All of us can only win, as knowledge is nothing to be sneezed at.
As most of the locals on our forum know, I am always willing to travel and always wanting to find things out.
And to get to know fellow enthusiasts better is a bargain as well.
So, again, can we do something here??
being on the other side of the world unfortunately I doubt we will ever get together.
good on you for being willing, I really do hope that your offer is taken up. Not for one side to win or lose, but hey rather than talking about it ad nauseum let's make it progress.
All of us can only win, as knowledge is nothing to be sneezed at.
As most of the locals on our forum know, I am always willing to travel and always wanting to find things out.
And to get to know fellow enthusiasts better is a bargain as well.
So, again, can we do something here??
thetubeguy1954 said:
They tend to shy away from Orlando. They consider it a "Mickey Mouse" kinda town.....
if there is any ONE single audible difference between ANY two pieces of wire, then it is true that all wires CAN affect the sound.
so, what we need is someone to simply take a single strand of super skinny wire, like ONE strand of 40 gauge wire, and then some simple 12 gauge solid core housing wire as speaker wire, and do your DBT on that. keep everything the same except for the speaker wire.
i would be guess that all the test subjects would pick the thicker wire as better sounding.
this chart illustrates that there are electrical differences between different gauges of cables.
the chart that illustrates
i don't know what makes cable skeptics think that voltage drops and whatnot won't affect the sound.
or, maybe what we need is for the skeptics to admit that a wire that is almost broken, and is cutting in and out, sounds different from a different length of the exact same type of cable that is totally intact.
step on a badly frayed but still functioning cable and you will hear the speakers react to the actions of your foot on the cable.
so, what we need is someone to simply take a single strand of super skinny wire, like ONE strand of 40 gauge wire, and then some simple 12 gauge solid core housing wire as speaker wire, and do your DBT on that. keep everything the same except for the speaker wire.
i would be guess that all the test subjects would pick the thicker wire as better sounding.
this chart illustrates that there are electrical differences between different gauges of cables.
the chart that illustrates
i don't know what makes cable skeptics think that voltage drops and whatnot won't affect the sound.
or, maybe what we need is for the skeptics to admit that a wire that is almost broken, and is cutting in and out, sounds different from a different length of the exact same type of cable that is totally intact.
step on a badly frayed but still functioning cable and you will hear the speakers react to the actions of your foot on the cable.
What you are proposing is actually dangerous. Check your electrical code tables to ascertain how many amps you can push through a 40 gauge wire. It ain't much.
You are basically advocating burning the poor buggers house down.
Get some grounding in electrical practice first before you advocate rather stupid things.
so, are you saying cable does makes a difference, then?
anyway, the super skinny wire would probably just melt quickly if too much current went though it. like solder, it would cool as quickly as it heated. god bless heat conductors.
WARNING: do not try this experiment in an environment with flammable chemicals suspended in air!!
we used to cook hot dogs in electronics class by plugging a wiener with a wire wrapped nail on either end into the wall. that was 'dangerous'.
who, at a DIY audio forum doesn't know at least SOMETHING about electricity?
it is clear from your comment that you agree not all cable is created (destroyed) equal.
anyway, the super skinny wire would probably just melt quickly if too much current went though it. like solder, it would cool as quickly as it heated. god bless heat conductors.
WARNING: do not try this experiment in an environment with flammable chemicals suspended in air!!
we used to cook hot dogs in electronics class by plugging a wiener with a wire wrapped nail on either end into the wall. that was 'dangerous'.
who, at a DIY audio forum doesn't know at least SOMETHING about electricity?
it is clear from your comment that you agree not all cable is created (destroyed) equal.
Sure it does, see above - you're interrupting proper current flow.
You probably notice a change in volume if the fraying is bad enough.
Nothing esoteric - just basic electrical knowledge.
Sure, if you use material unsuitable for the purpose, you can prove anything.
Just use a constantan wire as a speaker wire. But don't blame me for the results.
audio-kraut said:
for 40 guage:
0.09 amps for chassis wiring
0.0137 amps for power transmission
but you can't 'hear' it, LOL!
audio-kraut said:
yeah, basically, a skinny wire can't carry as much power as a thick one.
very basic, indeed.
SY said:
i already know it.
so, who's building a straw man? 'me', or 'them'?
are you suggesting that as long as a wire doesn't melt, or otherwisely open the circuit, that the sound (circuit) is unchanged, or are you with me on the fact that cable has electrical characteristics, and any and all electrical influences affect the whole circuit, including what guage/quality cable is used?
is the straw man that as long as the circuit remains open it is unchanged by the electrical characteristics of the conduits?
or is the straw man that if you can't "prove" what someone else hears, then it is all in his/her imagination?
😀
The straw man is the notion that L,C, and R are universally unimportant. No-one makes that claim.
SY said:
For 12 trials it needs 10 correct answers with SL=0.05, maybe you could update the description in this point.
While an experiment can be done that way, it should be made clear that it will take more training, as earlier studies confirmed the fact that participants in dbts very often fail to detect "sameness" .
That can be seen in the results of every documented dbt that follows this routine, see for example the big stereophile dbt on amplifiers, or the article by Tom Nousaine quoted earlier.
Just another example can be seen in the data of the dbt-results from Olaf Sturm- the number of the correct answer "no difference" was very low in both trials that served as a negative control.
While the preference scheme in panel listening tests has its own difficulties, if only one person is participating and was listening before sighted on a well known system, then a preference test with 2-alternative forced choice scheme seems to be more appropriate. (Assumed that only that music sample is played during the test, that was used during the initial listening)
Given the ease and remarkable ability of the claimants at identification, this should be a piece of cake for them. I seriously doubt that with the enormous, easy-to-hear differences, any further training is necessary. I didn't need weeks of training to be able to tell Cote-Rotie from Burgundy.
SY said:
Well, i see that point, but it should be made clear before any test, what the goal of the test is.
If it is not to investigate if an audible difference exists, but if an audible difference is "earthshaking" , then it´s fine, but it is a total different game.
BTW, while it does not meet exactly our situation here, it is still amazing what remains undetected in experiments:
http://viscog.beckman.illinois.edu/djs_lab/demos.html
It is well worth a look. 🙂
Still, if the reason for blind testing is the susceptibility of people for confounders/biases, then you have to take into account that they are still susceptible in a blind test situation, and it doesn´t matter if a (possible) confounder is inside there head or coming from outside.
Like I've said over and over, the blinding of a test doesn't seem to inhibit skills in wine tasting or optics or haptics or... just about anything else except high end audio. People are claiming near-instant identification with 100% success; well, the test I propose, with lots of time and subject control of levels, material, trial time, and recalibration to known references, ought to be pretty easy for them.
SY said:
SY, please bear with me, but i really can´t remember to have questioned the usefulness of dbts in general (or in the audio field).
What i´ve said over and over, that it is quite easy to produce false negatives with dbts if improper done.
Testing is normally based on a more conservative feeling, that is the reason why most experimentators are more concerned about false positives than about false negatives, but if you are looking for the best sound quality that isn´t the right way to go.
I know, as everybody else who has conducted dbts himself knows, that it is pretty easy to bring participants in the state of not detecting anything even quite obvious things.
I´ve never done enough dbts in other fields to be an expert over there, but after all i´ve read about it, it is quite easy to produce false results in wine testing, food testing and so on.
You´ve posted elsewhere in this thread, that it only needs _one_ result in a controlled listening test to end the discussion, but that it has never been done.
I gave source citation to a controlled test, and tried to give an accurate description of what has been done in this test (as the source is only available in german).
Does it seem to interest anybody? I don´t think so, and i take it just as a proof of concept; it doesn´t matter as long as we are in reality talking about very strong belief systems. And i feel that is the case on both sides of the table.
But let´s assume for a moment, that a positive test result exists- what does that mean to someone looking for a good sounding system?
Is he now obliged to hear differences due to cables himself?
Or does he still have to find out himself, maybe by listening?
I only think it to be fair, to tell him, that it is _not_ _easy_ to detect audible differences in a blind test, if he is untrained under these circumstances.
Give him the advice to train a lot and he will learn a lot about his perception.
That´s all to it, learn about the way your personal perceptions works (and blind testing can/will help on that) and then you´ll produce more accurate results in tests.
Consider the development of amps. Non-tube amps, for simplification. A good amp from 20 years ago, in good working order, is as good as any new amp today. Yet every year we hear about how new amps are better. Generally in electronics, when a product matures the price drops radically.
In audiophile ville, it's not about price /performance, it's about filling price points with perceived value. The serious person who wanted a $4000 amp 20 years ago wants a $4000 amp today. The market is happy to provide the $4000 which the buyer will hear as clearly superior to his $2000 amp.
This is too bad, because a guy with a two channel amp is stuck in an architecture where the crossover is on the power side on the amp. A low power crossover would need six amp channels, and that would be $12000.
I was an amp guy. I don't find it justified any more from the point of sound quality. Source and speakers are much more important. I do really like tubes, but I'm staying away from any double blind tests. Tubes are warm and glowie and look cool.
Solid state amps got very good in the 1970's. A good photocopy machine costs tens of thousands of dollars, The Motorola bag phone didn't appear for 10 more years. If your a amp believer, explain how it cost the same as 30 years ago.
There's only one reason for $500 speaker wire: A guy with a $10K system will spend $500 to "improve" his system. And it does, if he believes it. There is a real change, but it's only within the buyer. And the vendor get $500 and is happy.
In audiophile ville, it's not about price /performance, it's about filling price points with perceived value. The serious person who wanted a $4000 amp 20 years ago wants a $4000 amp today. The market is happy to provide the $4000 which the buyer will hear as clearly superior to his $2000 amp.
This is too bad, because a guy with a two channel amp is stuck in an architecture where the crossover is on the power side on the amp. A low power crossover would need six amp channels, and that would be $12000.
I was an amp guy. I don't find it justified any more from the point of sound quality. Source and speakers are much more important. I do really like tubes, but I'm staying away from any double blind tests. Tubes are warm and glowie and look cool.
Solid state amps got very good in the 1970's. A good photocopy machine costs tens of thousands of dollars, The Motorola bag phone didn't appear for 10 more years. If your a amp believer, explain how it cost the same as 30 years ago.
There's only one reason for $500 speaker wire: A guy with a $10K system will spend $500 to "improve" his system. And it does, if he believes it. There is a real change, but it's only within the buyer. And the vendor get $500 and is happy.
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