Gabdx1 said:
you wouldn't have been impressed with me. i play with my fists.
according to some on this thread, there is no difference between that steinway and the bosendorfer imperial i love to box with. there both pianos, so there's no difference.
just read an awesome paper on these theories, although most of it is admittedly over my head, it is hard science applied to this wire argument (with surprising results).
here's a link to the pdf
Now you are talking 🙂
Stein and Bosen are classical sound: lyric and soft colorful tone, warm like... opposed to Yamaha: more jazz clear sound
I like Yamaha for the evenness of the touch, for the mechanism and clarity. I like Steinway for the powerful sound... bosendorfer is more powerful and classic: very deep resonances because they add more bass notes: like 12 feet long 🙂
My brother tried the bosendorfer, I didn¡¦t 🙁
If you prefer bosen to stein , its just personal choice...
Keep your mind open ļ like for choosing a stereo: Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt had all many pianos ļ
Stein and Bosen are classical sound: lyric and soft colorful tone, warm like... opposed to Yamaha: more jazz clear sound
I like Yamaha for the evenness of the touch, for the mechanism and clarity. I like Steinway for the powerful sound... bosendorfer is more powerful and classic: very deep resonances because they add more bass notes: like 12 feet long 🙂
My brother tried the bosendorfer, I didn¡¦t 🙁
If you prefer bosen to stein , its just personal choice...
Keep your mind open ļ like for choosing a stereo: Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt had all many pianos ļ
Pehaps you can explain to me the purpose of the tap windings on an output transformer then ? You didn't think of that ?
Do you think those 4/8/16 ohm windings are there for the hell of it ?
You know what a valve amplifier is and the purpose of an output transfomer, don't you ?
You should also realise that any so called super-conductor could take the form of an interconnect between a MC cartridge and the input stage of a RIAA phono stage ? Would you not use impedance matching there ?
What I was saying was that 0.00000001 ohm would make absolutely no difference in a super conductor, in much the same way that 1uH of inductance does to a series inductor in the LF section of a crossover.
So Professor RDF, enlighten us all. You and Panicos seem to be number 1 and 2 in the lunatics asylum.
Ok RDF ...
So what was it you said ?
"Impedance matching at the amp/speaker interface? "
Are you serious ?
You never heard of it before?
You are clearly the one who hasn't a clue.
Even google-fu knows about it. I learnt this during basic BTEC Diploma 20 years ago, obviously a far more advanced qualification than todays poxy degree alternative.
Here is your google-fu from Wikipedia.
>>
Loudspeaker amplifiers
Modern solid state audio amplifiers do not use matched impedances, contrary to myth. The driver amplifier has a low output impedance, such as < 0.1 ohm, and the loudspeaker usually has an input impedance of 4, 8, or 16 ohms, which is many times larger than the former. This type of connection is impedance bridging, and it provides better damping of the loudspeaker cone to minimize distortion.
The myth comes from tube audio amplifiers, which required impedance matching[dubious – discuss] for proper, reliable operation. Most of these had output transformer taps to approximately match the amplifier output to typical loudspeaker impedances
<<
So remind me again, you think that impedance matching does not exist between the speaker and amplifier ?
Oh no, next you'll be telling us that transistors sound better than valves.
So what was it you said ?
"Impedance matching at the amp/speaker interface? "
Are you serious ?
You never heard of it before?
You are clearly the one who hasn't a clue.
Even google-fu knows about it. I learnt this during basic BTEC Diploma 20 years ago, obviously a far more advanced qualification than todays poxy degree alternative.
Here is your google-fu from Wikipedia.
>>
Loudspeaker amplifiers
Modern solid state audio amplifiers do not use matched impedances, contrary to myth. The driver amplifier has a low output impedance, such as < 0.1 ohm, and the loudspeaker usually has an input impedance of 4, 8, or 16 ohms, which is many times larger than the former. This type of connection is impedance bridging, and it provides better damping of the loudspeaker cone to minimize distortion.
The myth comes from tube audio amplifiers, which required impedance matching[dubious – discuss] for proper, reliable operation. Most of these had output transformer taps to approximately match the amplifier output to typical loudspeaker impedances
<<
So remind me again, you think that impedance matching does not exist between the speaker and amplifier ?
Oh no, next you'll be telling us that transistors sound better than valves.
Yes, to present an optimum load to the output tubes. That's not in any way "impedance matching"; the output tubes will have a larger (in the case of pentodes, much larger) impedance than the reflected impedance from the speakers. For 99.9% of speakers, the optimum source impedance is zero, not the same impedance as the speakers.
Yes, I know the argument well., but historically it is called impedance matching.
References
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/audio/imped.html#c1
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/us_pro_ea_audiotransformer
and there are many more ..
You could also argue that impedance equalisation in the crossover is not necessary, but the reality is that resistors are often in the circuit ( eg: L-Pad attenuation resistors )
The point was that the so called "superconductor" would be the utlimate speaker cable, but the reality is that speaker loads can be matched as are amplifier line stages ( though not always ) so the merits of the super-conductor ( if possible ) are in doubt, ok ?
Make of it what you will.
References
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/audio/imped.html#c1
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/us_pro_ea_audiotransformer
and there are many more ..
You could also argue that impedance equalisation in the crossover is not necessary, but the reality is that resistors are often in the circuit ( eg: L-Pad attenuation resistors )
The point was that the so called "superconductor" would be the utlimate speaker cable, but the reality is that speaker loads can be matched as are amplifier line stages ( though not always ) so the merits of the super-conductor ( if possible ) are in doubt, ok ?
Make of it what you will.
mwaters, you seem to be confusing the highway with the origin and destination.
a nice cozy home (power source) and a nice cozy vacation spot (load) should be 'matched' to a person's taste, but the highway (cable) between has little to do with it. if traffic is bad, you may lose some vacation time, but if it's good, you get more R & R. the highway will get you there, eventually, but not always at the same rate.
ideally, you would just beam there, star trek style, and never touch the highway. that's what a superconductor would do for signal between an amp and a speaker.
the cable makes a difference, period. good cable will measure the output nearly unchanged from the input. bad cable will introduce more artifacts. cables have some capacitance and induction, as well as resistance. i guess ideally, all those would be zero, but that ain't gonna happen. seems to me that braided cable is going to cause more inductance and a more complicated magnetic field interference between adjacent current pathways, and maybe that's why solid core is better.
a nice cozy home (power source) and a nice cozy vacation spot (load) should be 'matched' to a person's taste, but the highway (cable) between has little to do with it. if traffic is bad, you may lose some vacation time, but if it's good, you get more R & R. the highway will get you there, eventually, but not always at the same rate.
ideally, you would just beam there, star trek style, and never touch the highway. that's what a superconductor would do for signal between an amp and a speaker.
the cable makes a difference, period. good cable will measure the output nearly unchanged from the input. bad cable will introduce more artifacts. cables have some capacitance and induction, as well as resistance. i guess ideally, all those would be zero, but that ain't gonna happen. seems to me that braided cable is going to cause more inductance and a more complicated magnetic field interference between adjacent current pathways, and maybe that's why solid core is better.
dukeoyork said:
They probably do make a difference, but a difference that is it audible? Only way to tell that is a carefully controlled blind test.
mwaters10 said:
I've designed and built many tube amps. Your example is impedance matching between the output tube's plate and load, not matching in any sense relevant to the cables. Keep Googling. After half a lifetime designing and building broadcast studios I also have a solid grasp on audio transformers, thanks. Your rants and links add nothing to it.
i don't know.
as an analogy, it would be hard to tell if a certain blue light was brighter than a certain green light, but with white light it would be easy.
so, i'm sure some fancy shmancy cables colour the sound differently, with the difference being a matter of preference.
however, i'm kind of in the middle of the debate. cable makes an audible difference, because i've heard it over and over. "better" is a whole 'nother topic.
and so, each frequency journeys differently through different cables, but the full spectrum output is easier to identify as clearer or duller.
i did a simple blind test. i put on a record, switched the amp to mono, and put the old 16 gauge radio shack multistrand speaker wire to the left speaker, and solid core 12 gauge to the right. then i had a 14 year old walk back in forth between the two, and tell me which sounded 'better'. he instantly picked the 12 gauge, and was quite shocked and impressed that there was such a big difference.
he's no audiophile. he had no preconceived notions, nor did he know which wire i expected him to pick, nor, indeed, anything at all about electricity.
you could have measured it on a spectrum analyzer, i'm quite sure. the highs were clearer and louder, even. that was the most obvious improvement, although EVERYTHING was better.
i can't believe there's even a debate about this.
like i said, before, there's a big law of diminishing returns in effect on this issue, and i don't think there's any need to spend more than fifty bucks to get really good signal transfer. so, for me, i'm not biased by how much it cost, as my better sounding 12 solid wire was actually cheaper than the 16 'real' mulltistrand speaker wire.
as an analogy, it would be hard to tell if a certain blue light was brighter than a certain green light, but with white light it would be easy.
so, i'm sure some fancy shmancy cables colour the sound differently, with the difference being a matter of preference.
however, i'm kind of in the middle of the debate. cable makes an audible difference, because i've heard it over and over. "better" is a whole 'nother topic.
and so, each frequency journeys differently through different cables, but the full spectrum output is easier to identify as clearer or duller.
i did a simple blind test. i put on a record, switched the amp to mono, and put the old 16 gauge radio shack multistrand speaker wire to the left speaker, and solid core 12 gauge to the right. then i had a 14 year old walk back in forth between the two, and tell me which sounded 'better'. he instantly picked the 12 gauge, and was quite shocked and impressed that there was such a big difference.
he's no audiophile. he had no preconceived notions, nor did he know which wire i expected him to pick, nor, indeed, anything at all about electricity.
you could have measured it on a spectrum analyzer, i'm quite sure. the highs were clearer and louder, even. that was the most obvious improvement, although EVERYTHING was better.
i can't believe there's even a debate about this.
like i said, before, there's a big law of diminishing returns in effect on this issue, and i don't think there's any need to spend more than fifty bucks to get really good signal transfer. so, for me, i'm not biased by how much it cost, as my better sounding 12 solid wire was actually cheaper than the 16 'real' mulltistrand speaker wire.
That's not a controlled test. There's a larger difference in the measurement specs of the separate channels of the amp than any difference the cable would make. Not to mention that the speakers were placed in different areas of the room. I've done some blind testing on my dad, but came to an entirely different conclusion. Check out the bottom link in my signature.
I copied this from post number 15 - Still it doesn't prove inaudibility of cables just points out the power of beliefs on how we hear.
"My Dad is a big believer in better cables. And about 6 months ago, I replaced his Oval Analysis silver cables on his CD player with generic $2.00 cables. He never noticed any difference, at least, he never told me about any loss of sound quality. He usually does. About 10 days later my dad said the stereo was sounding great, about the best sound he had ever heard. So, I decided to tell him about the cable.
He immediately want to know when I put it on, which I told him. And he thought a bit and said he noticed the bass got less and the highs were a bit brighter. But, he said to go ahead and leave the cable on and see how it goes.
The next day after listening a short time, he said the sound was bright and irritating and told me to take off the cable.
Did the cable affect the sound? I don't know, but more important than any change in sound was my dad's belief about cables.
Right now I have a $1.00 cable hooked up to our Benchmark DAC and the sound is really good and he doesn't know about it. I'm not gonna tell him. When I hooked up our DAC, I just didn't have another high quality cable to use that had RCA connectors, so I decided to try the $1.00. Been on there about 4 months. "
I think extended listening blind tests are needed in evaluating equipment and cables.
I copied this from post number 15 - Still it doesn't prove inaudibility of cables just points out the power of beliefs on how we hear.
"My Dad is a big believer in better cables. And about 6 months ago, I replaced his Oval Analysis silver cables on his CD player with generic $2.00 cables. He never noticed any difference, at least, he never told me about any loss of sound quality. He usually does. About 10 days later my dad said the stereo was sounding great, about the best sound he had ever heard. So, I decided to tell him about the cable.
He immediately want to know when I put it on, which I told him. And he thought a bit and said he noticed the bass got less and the highs were a bit brighter. But, he said to go ahead and leave the cable on and see how it goes.
The next day after listening a short time, he said the sound was bright and irritating and told me to take off the cable.
Did the cable affect the sound? I don't know, but more important than any change in sound was my dad's belief about cables.
Right now I have a $1.00 cable hooked up to our Benchmark DAC and the sound is really good and he doesn't know about it. I'm not gonna tell him. When I hooked up our DAC, I just didn't have another high quality cable to use that had RCA connectors, so I decided to try the $1.00. Been on there about 4 months. "
I think extended listening blind tests are needed in evaluating equipment and cables.
well, john, we all have our own experiences.
i had three configs.
one, both channels 16 gauge, another one channel 16 and one twelve, and the third and final (happiness is) both with twelve. if the amp was the issue, that would be reflected in all three tests.
i had three configs.
one, both channels 16 gauge, another one channel 16 and one twelve, and the third and final (happiness is) both with twelve. if the amp was the issue, that would be reflected in all three tests.
p.s. cables make no difference for digital. it either works, or it doesn't. people who spend big bucks on HDMI cables are wasting their money.
it's an analogue thing.
it's an analogue thing.
Johnloudb said:
Now that's a test I like, one in which the subject isn't even aware they're under test. Removes all performance stress. Tests don't get any 'blinder', assuming you didn't inadvertently botch it. 😉
Saying "cables make a difference, period." is like saying
"resistors make a difference".
Of course they do, we know what would happen if they weren't there.
I'm not sure if you were advocating this, but I interpreted that the goal of the super-conductor being the ultimate cable might make an audible difference. But that would imply that the circuits in which they were employed would benefit from decreased resitance etc..
Not wanting to state the bleeding obvious, but we're not generating the audio frequencies with cables. Cables don't sound of anything. The combined effect of the cables' specification and the electrical circuit has to be considered, but cables are there to conduct electrical charge.
The compromise of not having musicians in the room means we're stuck for the moment with resistors/capacitors and inductors in the circuit. The goal of the super-conductor is therfore a pointless dream and you should not get hung up about it, not until someone invents the super-inductor or the super-capacitor or the super-resisitor, whatever the hell they are.
Most sound engineers and cable manufactures aim to address
the issue of capacitance. Resistance is the least of their concerns.
The point of having absolute zero ohm resistance is not proved.
Once that is understood , you begin to realise that the only advice you need is to make sure your cable meats a certain specification.
The best value cables are studio grade cables, low capacitance with a good screen, that's about all you need. I would prefer to see someone interested in audio, not waste their time getting hung up about cable artefacts. You can change between many different cable types trying to achieve a sound that you're more comfortable with, only to find later on that the one that you didn't want sounded marginally better to you when you changed your CD player to a more natural and realistic sounding unit. So, how come the other cable is now better ( in my view most of it is down to the unreliability
of the listener, you know the affect a drop of caffeine or a drop of alcohol can have .. )
The gains are to be had elsewhere , cable choice is for the best part a distraction from the goal of achieving better sound quality, spending large amounts on exotic interconnects is insane.
Even discussing it eats into time most of us can ill afford. So as one of the previous posters advised, I think I'll stay out of these threads in future.
The concern is that the lunatics with nothing better to do than dream up reasons to upgrade their cables, are like the damn resistors and op-amps in my circuit. They amplify, distort and colour the message.
Maybe you need to work in marketing ?
mwaters10 said:
As one of the "distorting resistors" of this thread,I am very happy I was not in your circuit,I guess you would had me replaced long ago.These "distorting resistors and op-amps"are here trying to learn how to lower their distortion levels.With a treatment like yours however,I am afraid this won't be possible,sir.
I think crossovers can play a role their: some have resistance in the signal: the amp drive the resistors like if there was a very poor wire BUT very few inductance: resistance will change your sound and affect how the amplifier works,
The real bad thing is when the wire has capacitance or defects, like little crossovers: that acts like little filters for high frequency and even change the sound shape. Good wires try to limit the capacitance at any point.
I stick to my 2-10 % of price, when you shop for stereo and you buy a decent 5 K system ( I consider hifi starts at 8k$) its good to have around 250$ of good wires for speakers.
You can still build your amp and wires and modify your cd and get awesome results but... few knows how to do it and many are lead in the bushes, in the long run you can spend 2x more in diy to get same result of good commercial products....
The real bad thing is when the wire has capacitance or defects, like little crossovers: that acts like little filters for high frequency and even change the sound shape. Good wires try to limit the capacitance at any point.
I stick to my 2-10 % of price, when you shop for stereo and you buy a decent 5 K system ( I consider hifi starts at 8k$) its good to have around 250$ of good wires for speakers.
You can still build your amp and wires and modify your cd and get awesome results but... few knows how to do it and many are lead in the bushes, in the long run you can spend 2x more in diy to get same result of good commercial products....
If we talk of cabling in meaning of the powerway from amp`s output to speakersdrivers the closest you can get to no wireloss is by using heavy gauge solid copper. Not flatwalsed, not twisted, stranded or anything else, just a good open powerways.
Forget those who claim they can`t hear or whatever, their stupidity is their loss.
Forget those who claim they can`t hear or whatever, their stupidity is their loss.
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