thetubeguy1954 said:
Details can be found via Google. It's an interesting experiment and apparently one of many comparing new instruments to old. Not all arrive at the same result. Many are preference tests. The use of the word 'prove' regarding this particular one though is highly generous.
No...
I'm not scratching.. just dismissing the post as from someone without a clue about statistical proof (or experimental design, for that matter).. such a post at least proves something...😀 😀
Re:
"I don't wish to engage in whether or not wires have a unique sound or not. I have my opinion on that issue but neither side can or has been able to prove their POV is correct. Thus IMHO it's a waste of time to argue who is or isn't correct!"
Since the "Cables always make a difference" crowd is making the extraordinary claim, it is incumbent on them to prove such a difference exists to make an argument that applies to anyone other than themselves. To claim otherwise would mean anyone could say anything, therefore QED...
John L.
Pan said:
I'm not scratching.. just dismissing the post as from someone without a clue about statistical proof (or experimental design, for that matter).. such a post at least proves something...😀 😀
Re:
"I don't wish to engage in whether or not wires have a unique sound or not. I have my opinion on that issue but neither side can or has been able to prove their POV is correct. Thus IMHO it's a waste of time to argue who is or isn't correct!"
Since the "Cables always make a difference" crowd is making the extraordinary claim, it is incumbent on them to prove such a difference exists to make an argument that applies to anyone other than themselves. To claim otherwise would mean anyone could say anything, therefore QED...
John L.
What is this so called down to earth world you are referring to ?
Let's go back a bit to where this all started.
You stated that:
"Solid core cables have their own signature"
I asked for proof that this is true.
Then you said that "proof was a worn out theme"
I gave you examples where proof can be used to solve problems. If you cannot quantify what you are dealing with, then you cannot begin to understand what makes good sound.
You are misleading others about the subject. If you were to say that
to your ears, solid core seems to have it's own signature, but you didn't know why, then it could be argued that you were approaching the subject as an observer.
Howver, you didn't, you just claimed that solid core has it's own signature. You made a statement of fact.
;-)
Funny
I give you your platinum cable
http://www.vandenhul.com/p_B63.aspx
Read this and then smell the BS
"composed with finest ultra-pure solid platinum signal conductors and a platinum colored HULLIFLEX ® High Density jacket"
Ooh HULLIFLEX ..
"This time we worked our way backwards."
Ok, not sure how you reverse engineer a cable, but sounds good
"With our vast knowledge on metal technology we have started by calculating the ideal specifications for the conductors and matched the type of metal that possessed these numbers. It turned out that two 0.3 mm solid core ultra-pure platinum conductors were right on the dot."
So 0.3 mm is right on the dot .. they do know what they're doing .. phew
"The result is thus not only an extremely attractive looking cable but also probably the best metal-based balanced interconnect on the market today!"
Like Carlsberg is probably the best lager in the world
"supplied in a luxurious aluminium wallet"
I must have one
"Capacitance: 72 pF/m."
So not as ideal as studio grade Van Damne then
mwaters10 said:
What are you saying now?Obviously I didn't say what I said with your ears in mind.Is it so dificult to understand that?
i don't know about super expensive cable, other then it is subject to an exponential curve of diminishing returns. a real playground for snake oil salesman, for sure.
however, the 'proof' is at least in resistance of a wire. a little skinny strand of copper has more resistance than a big fat one. it's a fact. superconductor would be the ultimate speaker cable. anyone selling that?
here's a calculator for resistance in copper, aluminum and silver wire.
cable calculator
on a multitrack recording, you can't ignore the fact that the final mix has more than one 'cheap cable', and the source is first generation, so the only loss is through the wire and the preamp. a mixdown is taking a bunch of strong signals, and reducing them to two tiny signals. the small loss of a cable is not as relevant in the studio as it is at the output stage.
a stereo has to take a teeny weeny signal, and turn into something huge, again, so really good cable and their fractional differences in electrical properties become significant, imho.
however, like i said, i'd have to hear the super expensive stuff compared to this solid core 12guage housing wire to say whether the exotic stuff is any 'better' to my ears.
as i said earlier in the thread, there is a BIG improvement between stranded radio shack 16 guage speaker wire, and the 12 guage solid core.
however, the 'proof' is at least in resistance of a wire. a little skinny strand of copper has more resistance than a big fat one. it's a fact. superconductor would be the ultimate speaker cable. anyone selling that?
here's a calculator for resistance in copper, aluminum and silver wire.
cable calculator
on a multitrack recording, you can't ignore the fact that the final mix has more than one 'cheap cable', and the source is first generation, so the only loss is through the wire and the preamp. a mixdown is taking a bunch of strong signals, and reducing them to two tiny signals. the small loss of a cable is not as relevant in the studio as it is at the output stage.
a stereo has to take a teeny weeny signal, and turn into something huge, again, so really good cable and their fractional differences in electrical properties become significant, imho.
however, like i said, i'd have to hear the super expensive stuff compared to this solid core 12guage housing wire to say whether the exotic stuff is any 'better' to my ears.
as i said earlier in the thread, there is a BIG improvement between stranded radio shack 16 guage speaker wire, and the 12 guage solid core.
Ya but it helps use a little testosterone that's otherwise being wasted while you're sitting at the computer.
there's other types of sites for releasing testoterone!
panicos k, some high end studios DO use exotic microphone cable.
the discussion is only pointless if you're not interested, lol!
panicos k, some high end studios DO use exotic microphone cable.
the discussion is only pointless if you're not interested, lol!
First different music: jazz - baroque - romantic
All music is composed for it's time and with the instruments of the time.
Most designs keep being improved every century: pitch, definition, power, nuances abilities.
You can't be too general nor too specific with such a concept, must be the subject of a doctorate thesis.
Let's just talk about piano very shortly: first the harpsichord, then piano forte, then the modern piano.
It's common sense to acknowledge the designs keep going further to boost the sound clarity, power of nuances of sound, responsiveness and overall equality of sound.
Does it mean old piano are not good? They maybe don't have the clarity, power, ability to play very soft or loud. But they sound nicely. You can appreciate a piece on the harpsichord even if the sound is only at a constant volume. You still feel tempo, key progression, louder more notes, softer less notes etc.
It's like tubes: does it sound good? Yes, even if there is more analytical amps today.
Let me tell you this: when you hear a good music you feel good inside and you replenishes your energy, that's the only thing that matters for me.
When you own a Steinway and you can play yourself Bach - Mozart - Chopin, you lose interest in audiophile’s ego battles. You seek to hear the beauty of other musician interpretation.
I had to empty a bit my heart after reading many forums seeking to know how to make a passive I/V for CD player.
Morale of story: get a good speaker wire so you can sleep in peace, all components should be same quality: cables: 2-10 % of the total system price.
All music is composed for it's time and with the instruments of the time.
Most designs keep being improved every century: pitch, definition, power, nuances abilities.
You can't be too general nor too specific with such a concept, must be the subject of a doctorate thesis.
Let's just talk about piano very shortly: first the harpsichord, then piano forte, then the modern piano.
It's common sense to acknowledge the designs keep going further to boost the sound clarity, power of nuances of sound, responsiveness and overall equality of sound.
Does it mean old piano are not good? They maybe don't have the clarity, power, ability to play very soft or loud. But they sound nicely. You can appreciate a piece on the harpsichord even if the sound is only at a constant volume. You still feel tempo, key progression, louder more notes, softer less notes etc.
It's like tubes: does it sound good? Yes, even if there is more analytical amps today.
Let me tell you this: when you hear a good music you feel good inside and you replenishes your energy, that's the only thing that matters for me.
When you own a Steinway and you can play yourself Bach - Mozart - Chopin, you lose interest in audiophile’s ego battles. You seek to hear the beauty of other musician interpretation.
I had to empty a bit my heart after reading many forums seeking to know how to make a passive I/V for CD player.
Morale of story: get a good speaker wire so you can sleep in peace, all components should be same quality: cables: 2-10 % of the total system price.
Gabdx1 said:
i was just playing the 9 foot steinway at place des arts in montreal.
can't fight with my ego, anymore, and hope to win, LOL!
just kidding. i remain humble in the shadow of my own immense greatness.
let go of my ego waffle.
Oh come on, what the hell are you talking about ?
What is a superconductor ? Something with absolute 0 ohms resistance ? How much better would it sound in a system ?
All amplifier designers knows the resistance of the cable is the least of the problems for an amplifier.
Impedance matching is an important part of signal balancing , so you're still going to have to match all these "superconductors" with the correct impedance ( normal scenario is to add the correct resistance value in the signal path )
If you were talking about capacitive and inductive loads, fair enough, but the amplifier is more stable when the loudspeaker is seen as a resitive load. Will a superconductor resistance of 0.00000000000001 ohm make much of a difference to the load seen by the amplifier ?
Yes, any resistance adds noise, but the conductor resistance and noise is the least of your problems.
Isn't this supposed to be DIY audio? I expected to find people with knowledge of audio reproduction here. I'm getting the impression this is Tweakers Asylum, and the lunatics are obviously trying to take over the asylum.
mwaters10 said:
yes, superconductor would have zero ohms of resistance. you need to cool a conductor to absolute zero to get zero ohms of resistance. it's impossible, or at least highly improbable.
wire is merely supposed to let the electricity flow through it. the speaker should be the load, not the wire.
how much better would it sound? i'd have to hear it. maybe it would sound worse, for the same reason high definition television shows the skin pores on vanna white that weren't there before hi-def.
mwaters10 said:
well, my lack of resistance made you louder, LOL! i didn't know you needed a license to post, here. like anywhere else, avoid threads that make you mad or uncomfortable or disinterested.
Gabdx1 said:
A sensible number would be 0.5-2%. Doesn't take more for flawless performance.
/Peter
Hearing has nothing to do with it. Humans have lying, cheating brains. That's why we need controls to do a proper subjective test that gives objective results.
dukeoyork said:
I went last week for a saint-sens concerto etc concert...
Wasn't impressed 🙂 I prefer Ottawa when legends come, unfortunately not so often...
Yo yo ma coming, tickets starts at 75, any interested?
mwaters10 said:
Impedance matching at the amp/speaker interface? A great deal of your writing reads like Google-fu, which is a fine way to learn. It doesn't grant you the chops however to belittle the technical backgrounds here. You really don't have a clue about it.
No true audiophile will ever acknowledge that fact.
Their hearing is simply the perfect measuring instrument, able to detect differences no instrument is capable of.
This assumption alone makes it rather futile to discuss technical matters and their relationship to sound with any "'phile".
It is also nonsense to discuss the efficacy of a blinded test with folks who assume that taking away secondary information destroys the capability of the listener to evaluate sound differences, or who come up with harebrained test like the one posted here.
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