No one has, Frank. What they HAVE said is that cable differences can readily be made inaudible by very simple engineering, that there's no "mysterious X factor." I still await any evidence from those who claim the contrary.
wdyn1 said:
So far I havent yet heard anyone recommend any specific and costly cable, and still, nothing wrong in doing your own DIY cables, so what is the problem...anyway, we still need cables of some kind, right
We also have a thread with "all amps sound the same", so maybe soon we will have one with "all DA converters sound the same"
SY said:
The only ones talking about a "mysterious X factor" are those that claim that all cables are the same. There is nothing mysterious, the differences are only in the quality and selection of materials used and cable design.
Andre Visser said:
Hi,
When it comes to simplicity of engineering it's hard to beat a mute switch. 😀
As for the mysterious x-factor, according to this David Lynch nothing quite sounds the same....
Cheers, 😉
This is both my feelings and my experience on the subject.SY said:
Untrue. Find someone like SY for example to wax lyrical over a cable's purported (for example) midrange.Andre Visser said:
Which basically comes down to RLC choices and shielding.Andre Visser said:
As for materials, I see no reason to believe that silver sounds any different to copper, given equal resistance.
Brett said:
SY?
Brett said:
My experience, based on listening tests which count for nothing 😀, is that a smaller dia conductor will sound better than a larger dia conductor, therefore silver make sense because of its lower resistance. There are other possible influences also but I dont want to go there.
tnargs, I used the best sound measuring apparatus known to man - God-given ears - mine, my wife's and my friends'. If you have a better tool to offer, do let us all know about it.
Brett, sure you see no reason to believe silver sounds different to copper - but it does nevertheless. There is also no reason why one make of tube should sound different to another of the same design, but they most definitely do - even those made by the same manufacturer in one era can sound different to those made in another era. There is also no logical reason why a power cable should make a difference to the sound of a piece of audio equipment, but it surely does. If you would like to get a real surprise, try building a power cable with silver wire in it - even just one strand!
Andre, I think that you would be more prudent if you said "in such and such an application, I found smaller diameter conductors to give me a sound that I preferred". This is by no means a universal principle.
Also, you get copper wire and you get copper wire. I once spent quite a lot of money on Audioquest Midnight Plus speaker cable, only to find it had harsh and unpleasant high frequency and grainy midrange (in spite of marketing hype about so-called special "long grain copper") It was banished forthwith to bass duty, but the best move I made was to remove it from my system altogether. Experiments with various strands extracted from it were also very disappointing. I am currently using some old Cardas Quadlink cables for my bass speakers, which I find markedly superior to the midnight, but I am only using them because I sold my self-made cables, which were another big step up in my system (and in two of my friends' systems).
Brett, sure you see no reason to believe silver sounds different to copper - but it does nevertheless. There is also no reason why one make of tube should sound different to another of the same design, but they most definitely do - even those made by the same manufacturer in one era can sound different to those made in another era. There is also no logical reason why a power cable should make a difference to the sound of a piece of audio equipment, but it surely does. If you would like to get a real surprise, try building a power cable with silver wire in it - even just one strand!
Andre, I think that you would be more prudent if you said "in such and such an application, I found smaller diameter conductors to give me a sound that I preferred". This is by no means a universal principle.
Also, you get copper wire and you get copper wire. I once spent quite a lot of money on Audioquest Midnight Plus speaker cable, only to find it had harsh and unpleasant high frequency and grainy midrange (in spite of marketing hype about so-called special "long grain copper") It was banished forthwith to bass duty, but the best move I made was to remove it from my system altogether. Experiments with various strands extracted from it were also very disappointing. I am currently using some old Cardas Quadlink cables for my bass speakers, which I find markedly superior to the midnight, but I am only using them because I sold my self-made cables, which were another big step up in my system (and in two of my friends' systems).
hihopes said:
hihopes
I know you do not have any bad intentions.
It is such statements, claims, without any reservations, that we call 'Audio Lies'.
This does not mean people want to lie to anyone.
It means that one un-verified subjective impression can not be stated as general facts.
You can actually have this listening impression.
But put this out as a general knowledge is not fair.
As a personal opinion. Yes, it is alright.
-----
Logically.
Neither silver nor copper makes sounds. They are conductors of electrons, electricity.
The electricity conducted is same no matter what conductor. Silver and copper has very tiny difference in electrical parameters.
Electricity can generate a magnetic force so loudspeakers makes sound.
-----
Audio Lies are not really lies.
But they are myths. They are magic. They are unverified opinions.
They are not logical. They fool most those with little knowledge.
They can make money from people believing in audio myths.
And from people who do not have a critical, sceptical mind.
It is close to plain superstition.
Regards 🙂 Lineup
Audio Lies - Audio Myths
Audio Lies are not really lies.
But they are myths. They are magic. They are unverified opinions.
It is close to plain superstition.
--------------- quote -----------------
At the dark end of that spectrum, however,
a new age of ignorance, superstition,
and dishonesty holds sway. Why
and how that came about has been
amply covered in past issues of this
publication; here I shall focus on the
rogues’ gallery of currently proffered
mendacities to snare the credulous.
1. The Cable Lie
2. The Vacuum-Tube Lie
3. The Antidigital Lie
4. The Listening-Test Lie
5. The Feedback Lie
6. The Burn-In Lie
7. The Biwiring Lie
8. The Power Conditioner Lie
9. The CD Treatment Lie
--------
10. The Golden Ear lie
The best defense against the Golden
Ear lie is of course the double-blind
ABX test (see No. 4 above). That separates
those who claim to hear something
from those who really do. It is amazing
how few, if any, GE’s are left in the
room once the ABX results are tallied.
--------------- end quote -----------------
Audio Lies - topic & discussion
Audio Lies are not really lies.
But they are myths. They are magic. They are unverified opinions.
It is close to plain superstition.
--------------- quote -----------------
At the dark end of that spectrum, however,
a new age of ignorance, superstition,
and dishonesty holds sway. Why
and how that came about has been
amply covered in past issues of this
publication; here I shall focus on the
rogues’ gallery of currently proffered
mendacities to snare the credulous.
1. The Cable Lie
2. The Vacuum-Tube Lie
3. The Antidigital Lie
4. The Listening-Test Lie
5. The Feedback Lie
6. The Burn-In Lie
7. The Biwiring Lie
8. The Power Conditioner Lie
9. The CD Treatment Lie
--------
10. The Golden Ear lie
The best defense against the Golden
Ear lie is of course the double-blind
ABX test (see No. 4 above). That separates
those who claim to hear something
from those who really do. It is amazing
how few, if any, GE’s are left in the
room once the ABX results are tallied.
--------------- end quote -----------------
Audio Lies - topic & discussion
If anyone in WA state wants to do a cable roll fest on someweekend or whatever, I am game for it. We can do it at my home & use my source, amps & speakers or bring your own, deosn't matter to me. I of course will introduce my Goodwill specials in the mix & you will NOT see it happen. We can do it all day if wanted & document it every step of the way also if wanted. But I will insist my Goodwill specials get used in the cable showdown. I have 300B PP here to use & many others & just JBL L-65N for speakers & a few sources, but again bring what you want. If anyone is game for it just let me know. It would be fun. I am 40 miles S. of Oly.....
J & G
J & G
Ya know with ABX and a blindfold I have discovered the following scientific facts:
All cars are the same.
All amplifiers are the same.
All wines are the same.
All potato crisps are the same.
SACD is the same quality as MP3
etc etc etc
Ha ha , all these stupid gullible people believing all these myths about some things of one type being better than others. The ultimate science of ABX testing proves them all wrong!
Personally, I have done one carefully set up interconnect IC blinded test in my system, and I could (I got a statistically significant result) differentiate between an Audionote solid silver IC and a Van den Hul carbon/silver-plated-copper one.
How did I perform this impossible feat? They sound slightly, but consistently, different.
Perhaps you need more revealing systems guys!
😉
All cars are the same.
All amplifiers are the same.
All wines are the same.
All potato crisps are the same.
SACD is the same quality as MP3
etc etc etc
Ha ha , all these stupid gullible people believing all these myths about some things of one type being better than others. The ultimate science of ABX testing proves them all wrong!
Personally, I have done one carefully set up interconnect IC blinded test in my system, and I could (I got a statistically significant result) differentiate between an Audionote solid silver IC and a Van den Hul carbon/silver-plated-copper one.
How did I perform this impossible feat? They sound slightly, but consistently, different.
Perhaps you need more revealing systems guys!
😉
The unexplainable doesnt have to be an illusion
Seems some who claims that silver cant be any different than copper, have never even tried a silver cable...why bother if it aint different
To me it sounds more like convenient and wishfull thinking
seems like if the ones who have tried, knows the difference, and the ones who havent are those who doesnt believe in any difference
Personally I really dont care much about it anymore, one way or the other, my gear plays like it does, and its ok
But years ago I have experienced the differences, quite clearly, lots of times, digital cables and all
A "pseudo-balanced" cable sounds different, it even sounds different depending on which end you connect the shielding
An ordinary shielded cable sounds different than a symmetric non-shielded
A cable with plastic sleeve sounds different than one with non-plastic sleeve like silk or cotton
And the list goes on, its just the way it is
Frequently the response goes to the insanity of costly highend audiophile cables...well, none of the above cost much to do, may even be cheaper than ordinary plain cheapskate cables
Lots of cheap tricks around, tricks that do make a difference
Like the feets beneath a CD, the shelve its standing on...and so on
btw, I am certain that many will know the whining peaky sound of silver plated copper cables, which wrongfully were the scoop fore many years, and sorry to say they are still popular...I admit that many people have been fooled and mislead there
Seems some who claims that silver cant be any different than copper, have never even tried a silver cable...why bother if it aint different
To me it sounds more like convenient and wishfull thinking
seems like if the ones who have tried, knows the difference, and the ones who havent are those who doesnt believe in any difference
Personally I really dont care much about it anymore, one way or the other, my gear plays like it does, and its ok
But years ago I have experienced the differences, quite clearly, lots of times, digital cables and all
A "pseudo-balanced" cable sounds different, it even sounds different depending on which end you connect the shielding
An ordinary shielded cable sounds different than a symmetric non-shielded
A cable with plastic sleeve sounds different than one with non-plastic sleeve like silk or cotton
And the list goes on, its just the way it is
Frequently the response goes to the insanity of costly highend audiophile cables...well, none of the above cost much to do, may even be cheaper than ordinary plain cheapskate cables
Lots of cheap tricks around, tricks that do make a difference
Like the feets beneath a CD, the shelve its standing on...and so on
btw, I am certain that many will know the whining peaky sound of silver plated copper cables, which wrongfully were the scoop fore many years, and sorry to say they are still popular...I admit that many people have been fooled and mislead there
I have been pondering a little, and I wonder if the following has any validity in what's going on.
When we listen, we hear the soundstage, the singer on the left, drums behind, fading guitar note on the right whilst a buildup of sound occurs on top of it, etc etc etc.
Might only be me, but constant exposure to things like that tends to lead me to believe that the system (and all parts within it of course) have to transmit 'discrete and seperate' components of signal, each discrete part corresponding to the vocal in the centre, the guitar on the left etc etc, and any incorrect or partial transmission of those components leads to 'diminished soundstage, poor seperation of instruments, veils (hahaha)' and so on.
Of course that is all rubbish! I find the actuality quite hard to comprehend in it's totality and simplicity...and I remember when I first came across this, what an amp actually does.
Rather than amplifying all the seperate signals (guitar, vocals etc) that superimpose upon each other and resolve as seperate parts of the soundstage, and amp only amplifies a SINGLE signal. ONE wave only. (or so I read, as I say it is almost too simple if you follow me)
Not five waves (for each member of the quintet), not one hundred for the orchestra, one wave only. And from that translated at the speaker end we end up with this astonishing illusion we call stereo.
As I say, it can be hard to accept that simplicity. ( and even now I still am amazed that what translates this to sound is a cone moving backwards and forwards! And it is capable of recreating many many frequencies simultaneously that give us depth perception,width, seperation etc etc. astonishing really)
So, this is what I wonder. Reduced to it's simplicity, a cable only has to transmit a single wave, then this whole question really is reduced to basic wave transmission theory which, by now, is pretty well completely understood.
And the factors that affect the correct (ie no distortion) of that waveform.
L C R.
Are there ANY other things that have been identified that alter a waveform passing thru a wire? Surely by now they would have been found and learned about??
We on the other hand are seduced and swayed by this amazing illusion that appears before us, it is almost mystical and beyond explanation or comprehension.
Except it's not. It is one wave transmitted and manipulated in some way and transduced at the back end.
But I do understand how we ascribe magical properties to every part of the process, from a waving diaphragm at the start to a waving diaphragm at the end.
When we listen, we hear the soundstage, the singer on the left, drums behind, fading guitar note on the right whilst a buildup of sound occurs on top of it, etc etc etc.
Might only be me, but constant exposure to things like that tends to lead me to believe that the system (and all parts within it of course) have to transmit 'discrete and seperate' components of signal, each discrete part corresponding to the vocal in the centre, the guitar on the left etc etc, and any incorrect or partial transmission of those components leads to 'diminished soundstage, poor seperation of instruments, veils (hahaha)' and so on.
Of course that is all rubbish! I find the actuality quite hard to comprehend in it's totality and simplicity...and I remember when I first came across this, what an amp actually does.
Rather than amplifying all the seperate signals (guitar, vocals etc) that superimpose upon each other and resolve as seperate parts of the soundstage, and amp only amplifies a SINGLE signal. ONE wave only. (or so I read, as I say it is almost too simple if you follow me)
Not five waves (for each member of the quintet), not one hundred for the orchestra, one wave only. And from that translated at the speaker end we end up with this astonishing illusion we call stereo.
As I say, it can be hard to accept that simplicity. ( and even now I still am amazed that what translates this to sound is a cone moving backwards and forwards! And it is capable of recreating many many frequencies simultaneously that give us depth perception,width, seperation etc etc. astonishing really)
So, this is what I wonder. Reduced to it's simplicity, a cable only has to transmit a single wave, then this whole question really is reduced to basic wave transmission theory which, by now, is pretty well completely understood.
And the factors that affect the correct (ie no distortion) of that waveform.
L C R.
Are there ANY other things that have been identified that alter a waveform passing thru a wire? Surely by now they would have been found and learned about??
We on the other hand are seduced and swayed by this amazing illusion that appears before us, it is almost mystical and beyond explanation or comprehension.
Except it's not. It is one wave transmitted and manipulated in some way and transduced at the back end.
But I do understand how we ascribe magical properties to every part of the process, from a waving diaphragm at the start to a waving diaphragm at the end.
Tery, interesting evaluation...but one point, the much desired illusion you describe so perfectly isnt at al so obvious and present in all setups...why is that ?
I hate to drag the late Mr Duelund into this, but I do
Mostly when he made his truely superiour cables he would mark the cable so that one could see which way it should be oriented and connected as he believed the silver wire had an orientation caused by the manyfacture, and I have to admit I never did bother about that
He strongly believed in such small details
Sometimes it could seem to get a bit out of hand...but rest assured that if he hadnt payed such attention to these minor details, well, I am quite sure that those fine DCA capacitors wouldnt have existed today...I dont suppose anyone doubt the quality of those caps, or are they also all the same as cheap ones
I hate to drag the late Mr Duelund into this, but I do
Mostly when he made his truely superiour cables he would mark the cable so that one could see which way it should be oriented and connected as he believed the silver wire had an orientation caused by the manyfacture, and I have to admit I never did bother about that
He strongly believed in such small details
Sometimes it could seem to get a bit out of hand...but rest assured that if he hadnt payed such attention to these minor details, well, I am quite sure that those fine DCA capacitors wouldnt have existed today...I dont suppose anyone doubt the quality of those caps, or are they also all the same as cheap ones
hihopes said:
Hi,
Not much to add.
-Solid strand sound different from multistrand wires.
It's amazing how a different powercord can change things, simply using the same gauge solid strand wire already brings a huge change (note, I'm NOT saying better, just different).
- Using as little metal as you can get away with (fine solid wire) sounds diferent.
- Solid copper wire can sound different depending on its geographical origin (mining company). Probably due to it's composition, content of manganese etc.
Electrical differences are however so small you wouldn't think it mattered. It seems however audible to some.
- Silver plated copper wire tends to sound too bright.
- Solid silver often emphasizes upper midrange when compared to the same copper wire.
Same here meaning electrically identical.
- Solid gold single strand wire also has a sound of its own which many prefer and describe as neutral (no particular frequency band stands out).
-Even the best dielectrics do have a sound of their own.
-Natural materials such as cotton and silk, covered in natural wax or not are often said to provide a..well, more natural sound.
Due to what, I don't know.
Literally thousands and thousands of people must have conducted listening tests over the past thirty years.
The above just reflects a general consensus that's been agreed upon ten years ago already among those that listen and try to understand.
Odd or not, people with a more "scientific" approach to these matters rarely ever have good sounding systems at home. Good enough to them maybe, not to my ears though.
-There are quite a number of studies that have shown that the way a wire is drawn (or pushed) affects grain orientation and metal purity. This again seemingly has an effect on sonic rendition.
-There's skindepth showing electrons to travel on the outer surface of a conductor.
-There's cryogenic treatment.
The list is just endless and yet when you'd measure test samples for electrical values such as L,C and R, nothing conclusive shows up.
Needless to say, you need to be totally concentrated and have well trained ears to be able to detect some differences in a blind test but it can be done.
If a certain number of people can truthfully detect a difference during a well thought out test than surely some difference may exist between sampe A, B or C (for instance).
Many years ago, a resistor was a resistor, was a resistor.
Now it seems everyone has accepted there's more to it than just that even though the purely electrical (bar R value) doesn't much vary from one type to the next, mission critical apps have shown that those minute variables are critical nonetheless.
The same is even more true for caps (obviously very easy to measure) but when someone comes along stating that cable A which has identical L,C and R values as cable B sounds different it's just unacceptable to the science is holy brigade.
One of the first philosophy courses I attended at university taught us that science is one big RESISTOR.
Ciao, 😉
SY said:
If they can be nade inaudible by very simple engineering,then I guess they can also be made audible by the same simple engineering.
Indeed. If I make the output stage of an amplifier marginally stable, a 1500 pF load from a high capacitance cable will destroy it (as with the old Polk cables). If I have a speaker where I've designed in an impedance dip to 1 ohm, a cable with a loop resistance of 1 ohm will cause a 6dB dip in the frequency response. If my preamp has a source impedance of 100k, an interconnect with 500pF of capacitance will form an audible lowpass filter.
All of these engineering incompetencies have appeared in well-reviewed soi disant "high end" products. This is not a theoretical exercise.
All of these engineering incompetencies have appeared in well-reviewed soi disant "high end" products. This is not a theoretical exercise.
I believe many cable manufacturers are engineers,and I know a few that are.Cable differences,not only because of RLC and shielding,but also metal purity,insulation etc...is thus,not only an issue between "believers & not believers",but also an issue between engineers with diferent methods and views.A diy'er,can make his own cables by using usually cheap readily available conductors.Can he make/manufacture a cable from scratch ?
A pcocc/teflon conductor for example,is costlier to manufacture than a tpc/pvc one.Why the amazement of price difference?A reasonably priced high purity cable in a high quality system is not uncommon today.No one said that a $5000 cable is a must,in fact many true audiophiles know better than you might think as to where to stop.As for the "audiophile engineers",since I,personally can hear the difference even on power cables with "unnecessary"large awg,it is also my opinion that these engineers know something more than others.This is a common thing in all aspects of life.No intention to offend anyone, just take myself as an example of someone who knows much less than most of you here.Hearing education however,is a different story.
A pcocc/teflon conductor for example,is costlier to manufacture than a tpc/pvc one.Why the amazement of price difference?A reasonably priced high purity cable in a high quality system is not uncommon today.No one said that a $5000 cable is a must,in fact many true audiophiles know better than you might think as to where to stop.As for the "audiophile engineers",since I,personally can hear the difference even on power cables with "unnecessary"large awg,it is also my opinion that these engineers know something more than others.This is a common thing in all aspects of life.No intention to offend anyone, just take myself as an example of someone who knows much less than most of you here.Hearing education however,is a different story.
Hi,
That Polk story reminds me of an early Monitor Audio LS cable (a Litz designed made of a multiple weave of individually enamelled wires braided to a flat cable) that hooked up to a Quad II didn't sound bad at all.
Hook it up to any SS amp however and pouff...gone was the outputstage.
Capacitance killed the cat.
Which brings us back to Naim and their design philosophy....
Ciao, 😉
That Polk story reminds me of an early Monitor Audio LS cable (a Litz designed made of a multiple weave of individually enamelled wires braided to a flat cable) that hooked up to a Quad II didn't sound bad at all.
Hook it up to any SS amp however and pouff...gone was the outputstage.
Capacitance killed the cat.
Which brings us back to Naim and their design philosophy....
Ciao, 😉
To say that all cables sound different without describing exactly what these differences actually sound like is of no practical value, DIYers want to know which is the best. The usual answer, "it depends on the system", invalidates the claim that the cable itself has 'a sound'.
A 'bright' cable should be bright on all systems, if not the 'brightness' is not a quality of the cable at all.
A 'bright' cable should be bright on all systems, if not the 'brightness' is not a quality of the cable at all.
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