I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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#2,181
Agree lineup!

But inductance may be an audible effect in speaker cables.

A speaker cable with high resistance and high inductance will have the function of a EQ on a speaker with low and non-flat impedance.

When there's a real audible effect, this is likely what people hear.

Also some poorly designed power amps may behave bad into capacitive loads.

All of the colorations above is easy to eliminate with good designs.


/Peter
 
#2,183
Panicos K said:




Not necessarily poorly designed amps.NAIM is a highly regarded amp and quite sensitive to the sp.cable capacitance(at least older models,not sure about new)
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I have not used or measured any Naim amps but I know that they are (or use to be) "poorly" designed on the output (no filter) which means they must be used with a very low capacitance cable (which also means highly inductive) unless you want it to blow.

As for highly regarded, what does that mean? (rethorical question)

But sure, this can work out if the amp/cable/speaker is designed and put together as a system, and possibly that's the way Naim intend their gear to be used.


/Peter
 
#2,185
From the zip cords I've measured (16 gauge) they should roll off above 20K.
In fact they calculate to almost 1 db down at 100KHz - shocking! 😱

Phase does roll a bit at 20K, maybe 5 degs.

I would imagine in practice they are worse than that - but not much.
 
#2,186
Pan said:


I have not used or measured any Naim amps but I know that they are (or use to be) "poorly" designed on the output (no filter) which means they must be used with a very low capacitance cable (which also means highly inductive) unless you want it to blow.

/Peter
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I don't really like the Naim sound (actually most of it sounds very good but they do something weird that I can't put my finger on). However I think they have a very interesting philosophy. Since all of their amps will have cables between them and the speakers, and all cables have some inductance and capacitance, they argue that the cables should be taken into account in the design of the amp. (my knowledge of this hasn't been updated in about five years, so maybe they've changed) All naim dealers will insist that you buy a specific amount of their cable when you buy an amp. It isn't that it's a poorly designed output stage; the cables are in fact part of the output stage and help prevent oscillation.

They also take the same approach with speakers. why design speakers to sound good in an anechoic chamber? they're going to be used in real rooms, so use room resonance instead of trying to avoid it. of course every room is different so it's a bit of a gamble 🙂 I have some naim intro's. they sound like crap with pretty much any high end amp I've tried except pass aleph on which they absolutely sing. i'd never heard anything like it before. no more flipping from disc to disc to see how it sounds. I just sat back and listened. The other amp which makes them sound halfway decent is the t-amp. esp on battery power 🙂 weird

ok so i drifted a little 🙂 but the bottom line is that naim is quite aware of the issue and they claim using cables to provide inductance can allow them to simplify the output stage, improving sound quality. whether or not it works... i don't know.
 
#2,187
Yes that sounds familiar. Question is would the output filter of a well designed amp be audible? I think not. Is it about saving a nickel and a dime?

And how about RFI sneaking into the feedback network with a filterless output and an antenna as speaker wire?

Don't know, just speculating.


/Peter
 
#2,188
Hi,

Just about anything is audible for better or for worse.
IME a lot of brands do have their typical sonic fingerprint, Naim is one of them.

Strangely sonic fingerprints seem to vanish into thin air once you hook up the measuring gear.... 😕

Ciao, 😉
 
#2,190
fdegrove you have never done a valid controlled listening test, i understand
if you did you might not be so sure in your statement, .... probably 😕
we will never know, because fdegrove, like many, you are afraid to prove your saying, scientifically

without proof or backing evidence we can say almost anything, can't we 😉
so here it is:
i can hear in my music system, when my neighbour has got his TV-set On!! or Off!!

fdegrove:
Just about anything is audible for better or for worse.
IME a lot of brands do have their typical sonic fingerprint
 
#2,191
lineup said:
i can hear in my music system, when my neighbour has got his TV-set On!! or Off!!
Click to expand...

I used to be able to hear whether my neighbour had his TV on even without my music system. But, now I can hear that whistling noise all the time :sigh:! And, I used to be able to read street signs from 200 metres, but now I can't even do that with glasses :sigh:!

But cables are just high-priced crossovers, when you go above $50. Yes, cables can make a difference, but only in a bad way. If they make a difference in a good way, then something in the rest of your system is flawed.

(That should keep it going until the New Year :headshot::whip:!)
 
#2,193
We sometimes in Sweden tells when someone twist what they read very much,
or have got things all backwards
have the saying:
He has read things
Like when the Devil reads The Bible
Click to expand...

And rdf, I think you read some of my posts like the Devil Reads The Bible 😀
Because NO,
I was praising FLAC, Free, Lossless Audio Codec.

References Lineup on FLAC:
1.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=126248
2.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1589809#post1589809
3.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1550699#post1550699
4.
And here is the post you read using the eyes of the devil, rdf 😀

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1685506#post1685506

lineup said:


good post, ostripper

About mp3 😉
Don't worry. We are many happy listeners to mp3. Surely Carlos DX 😀
Even at lower rate (128kbits).
When I can find, I download music in FLAC - Free Lossless Audio Codec.
Because it is full quality. Loss-less. http://flac.sourceforge.net/

But most of the music I can find is still in mp3. ~95% perhaps.
This does not bother me much.
I love those mp3 songs any way. They are mostly good enough for my ears 😀
If I want some my real favourite music I go buy the CD. Remastered - if possible

.
Click to expand...
 
#2,194
lineup said:
fdegrove you have never done a valid controlled listening test, i understand
if you did you might not be so sure in your statement, .... probably 😕
we will never know, because fdegrove, like many, you are afraid to prove your saying, scientifically

without proof or backing evidence we can say almost anything, can't we 😉
so here it is:
i can hear in my music system, when my neighbour has got his TV-set On!! or Off!!

fdegrove:
Just about anything is audible for better or for worse.
IME a lot of brands do have their typical sonic fingerprint
Click to expand...

Hi,

I hope you're not being serious?
No one's blaming anyone for not being perceptive enough to detect all kinds of differences between item A and B.
Differences that just slip by measuring devices which are nothing more than a collection of electronic components with a treshold of detection far inferior to our brain.

Some of us are lucky (depends on your POV) to be able to detect differences between samples quite easily others can't tell the difference between a Carlsberg and a Tuborg.

If you can't distinguish a life piano from a recorded one in a blind test then I wonder what you're doing in audio anyway?

I guess all resistors, caps and what have you do sound the same to you as well?

So why should cables be any different then?

If it measures the same, it then has to sound the same, right?
Does it?

Cheers, 😉
 
#2,195
fdegrove said:
Hi,

Just about anything is audible for better or for worse.
IME a lot of brands do have their typical sonic fingerprint, Naim is one of them.

Strangely sonic fingerprints seem to vanish into thin air once you hook up the measuring gear.... 😕

Ciao, 😉
Click to expand...
Sometimes it's necessary to look at different data or use different measuring methods. Checking the hookup is also probably a good idea.😉 Oops, I thought I heard music, but it doesn't show up on the scope.:clown:
 
#2,199
fdegrove said:

Some of us are lucky (depends on your POV) to be able to detect differences between samples quite easily others can't tell the difference between a Carlsberg and a Tuborg.

If you can't distinguish a life piano from a recorded one in a blind test then I wonder what you're doing in audio anyway?
Click to expand...

I prefer Cantillon myself. As for the second statement, really that sort of says it all.
 
#2,200
fredex said:
Hi fdegrove

I have no reason to doubt your hearing accuity. But I hope you are not suggesting we abandon all measurements for an individual's perceptions.

Surely the discussion has moved on since the 1970s? 🙂
Click to expand...


No one is suggesting that.On the contrary,people have faith in you all.Because when you have answers,true audiophiles-and you- will be able to DIY what they are paying much for today.
 
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