The perfect cable.
The perfect cable superconductor, it does not have resistance, it does not have capacity, it does not have inductivity. An animal like this does not exist in any case in brief!
I am not sad about this after all.
Gyuri
The perfect cable superconductor, it does not have resistance, it does not have capacity, it does not have inductivity. An animal like this does not exist in any case in brief!
I am not sad about this after all.
Gyuri
I don't believe cables make a difference
Gyuri.
Artistic side of it.
Yes, cables is something everybody can change.
No matter if you are one music loving professor in electronics.
Or one normal audio newbie who never have seen one transistor or resistor.
This makes cables very democratical.
Change any cable outside amplifiers, CD-players & loudspeakers is for everbody 😉
Change cable from a boring looking standard default 2x4 mm
to a nice coloured 2x6 mm will make me feel good.
When I feel good my music will make me more happy
than if I feel upset, bad
or when my girlfriend just left me for an audiophile with €250.000 audio system at home.
See how easy my music can be made to 'sound' better.
Just look at those lovely looking cables!!! 🙂
And I made them myself!!!
This is why they make that lovely sound.
--
Note: This does not mean I say anything really different is coming to my ears.
Not with upgrading from 2x4 mm to 2x6 mm copper conductor.
But in my mind it was a great diy audio tweak and makes me enjoy music better. 🙂
And this is what counts. Isn't it ...............................
Gyuri.
Artistic side of it.
Yes, cables is something everybody can change.
No matter if you are one music loving professor in electronics.
Or one normal audio newbie who never have seen one transistor or resistor.
This makes cables very democratical.
Change any cable outside amplifiers, CD-players & loudspeakers is for everbody 😉
Change cable from a boring looking standard default 2x4 mm
to a nice coloured 2x6 mm will make me feel good.
When I feel good my music will make me more happy
than if I feel upset, bad
or when my girlfriend just left me for an audiophile with €250.000 audio system at home.
See how easy my music can be made to 'sound' better.
Just look at those lovely looking cables!!! 🙂
And I made them myself!!!
This is why they make that lovely sound.
--
Note: This does not mean I say anything really different is coming to my ears.
Not with upgrading from 2x4 mm to 2x6 mm copper conductor.
But in my mind it was a great diy audio tweak and makes me enjoy music better. 🙂
And this is what counts. Isn't it ...............................
lineup said:
Well they aren't! 🙂
Modern measurement gear has much higher resolution than our ears.
/Peter
it takes current, energy to make sound waves.
Current that is put into the Loudspeakers.
Now when they tell me, that the input bias current to an op-amp
is 10 pA .. they have actually measured this, I suppose
1 pA = 0.000 000 000 001 Ampere
10 pA will create a voltage drop across 1 kOhm resistor of 10 nV
10nV = 0.000 000 01 Volt
Current that is put into the Loudspeakers.
Now when they tell me, that the input bias current to an op-amp
is 10 pA .. they have actually measured this, I suppose
1 pA = 0.000 000 000 001 Ampere
10 pA will create a voltage drop across 1 kOhm resistor of 10 nV
10nV = 0.000 000 01 Volt
Re this "mind thing"
Well, to me its actually the other way round
I need my friends to come and tell me that it does sound good
Though even despite they say its fantastic I still dont think of it as anything special
I guess I have just become much too critical and gotten used good sound
My reference is maybe simply different than that of my friends
Frankly speaking, I think you are giving this mind thing way too much credit
WHO is actually WANTING to believe what I dont know, and WHY I dont know either...though I may have a suspision
Well, to me its actually the other way round
I need my friends to come and tell me that it does sound good
Though even despite they say its fantastic I still dont think of it as anything special
I guess I have just become much too critical and gotten used good sound
My reference is maybe simply different than that of my friends
Frankly speaking, I think you are giving this mind thing way too much credit
WHO is actually WANTING to believe what I dont know, and WHY I dont know either...though I may have a suspision
Panicos K said:
A weakness would be R, C, L and shielding not being fit for the job.
Absolutely not. Any two cables that have their R, C, L and shielding in order will sound identical (=transparent) even if the parameters as such differ. It's about getting good enough, "better" is not better. Once the cable is out of the equation and inaudible it makes no point in trying to improve it.
A perfect cable is a cable that connects the two links without having any audible effect (or negative effect) on the signal.
Obviously that means different cables for different signals (speaker, line level..).
I would love to see this standpoint be proven wrong but there's nothing that indicates anything else than what I have brought up.
The clue is to learn about physics and electronics, do some measurements and blind listening tests and then it's hard not to reason like I do above.
🙂
/Peter
Pan,please explain what you mean "have their R,C,L and shielding "in order".Does that mean that if two interconnects that use the same conductors but with different twisting and are shielded with same or different shield will be identical?
Just trying to understand a few things and views.
Just trying to understand a few things and views.
Panicos K said:
What I mean is for example.. if a speaker has low enough R and L it is not going to have an effect as a speaker cable other than letting the music signal from the output of the amp to the speaker terminals. If the R or L becomes to big for the design it will cause audible and measurable differences = altered frequency response.
If an interconnect has low enough C and good screening it will be audibly transparent between a preamp and poweramp.
Of course good connections is necessary since oxides or loose connection may casue audible distortion.
It's perfectly possible to make a cable that colors the signal and as easy to make one that does not.
/Peter
I remember I once told a friend I had got these fantastic speaker cables
He was surpriced and didnt quite believe it but as he owned Quads I thought it was due time he got better cables so I was very percistent about it
So he actually went and bought some of those speaker cables
When he reported back it was ME who was surpriced
It didnt surprice me that he also actually could hear the difference
But what really surpriced ME was the fact that he only used about a FEET or HALF a meter
I really didnt expect such short cables to have any audible effect at all
Seems I also learned something
So tell me, why is it that people who doesnt believe in cables at all ends up buying them and have to admit to hear the difference
Doesnt seem to fit into your logic
I have to admit that today its my belief that if special cables are needed, something else is to blame
Today I prefer simple cheap solid core, preferably tinned copper, and rather thin than thick and use it everywhere I possibly can
Fore mains on my amps I use the rubbery kind that is used on handheld power tools, seems to be ok
If it sounds good theres no need to change it
He was surpriced and didnt quite believe it but as he owned Quads I thought it was due time he got better cables so I was very percistent about it
So he actually went and bought some of those speaker cables
When he reported back it was ME who was surpriced
It didnt surprice me that he also actually could hear the difference
But what really surpriced ME was the fact that he only used about a FEET or HALF a meter
I really didnt expect such short cables to have any audible effect at all
Seems I also learned something
So tell me, why is it that people who doesnt believe in cables at all ends up buying them and have to admit to hear the difference
Doesnt seem to fit into your logic
I have to admit that today its my belief that if special cables are needed, something else is to blame
Today I prefer simple cheap solid core, preferably tinned copper, and rather thin than thick and use it everywhere I possibly can
Fore mains on my amps I use the rubbery kind that is used on handheld power tools, seems to be ok
If it sounds good theres no need to change it
Now then some totally subjective off topic thing. (I was extremely relevant recently otherwise.)
I like to listen to music in such a way the best that I pass my favourite numbers over the favourite Hungarian STM-610 studios Reel-to-Reel recorder what I have. Meanwhile altogether does not interest, what kind of cables there are in the road of the sign. It likewise does not interest, that in this manner the sign noise relation at most 63 dB. After all better likes the music, than the CD. the music not the army of some ones and zeros. It stands to the mechanics near rather.
It stands because of this to the heart of many men near possibly LP and the tape-recorder's sound. All would is worthless of course (?) if it would not be the myself made by F4 amplifier, (I say thank you for it Papa!) the myself loudspeaker made by. (I say thank you for it MJK!)
Finally a quotation from Nelson Pass
:
I like to listen to music in such a way the best that I pass my favourite numbers over the favourite Hungarian STM-610 studios Reel-to-Reel recorder what I have. Meanwhile altogether does not interest, what kind of cables there are in the road of the sign. It likewise does not interest, that in this manner the sign noise relation at most 63 dB. After all better likes the music, than the CD. the music not the army of some ones and zeros. It stands to the mechanics near rather.
It stands because of this to the heart of many men near possibly LP and the tape-recorder's sound. All would is worthless of course (?) if it would not be the myself made by F4 amplifier, (I say thank you for it Papa!) the myself loudspeaker made by. (I say thank you for it MJK!)
Finally a quotation from Nelson Pass
:
tinitus said:
Of course it doesn't fit into my logic or any logic since it is unlogic. 🙂
Any "cable believer" must start to believe some time right?
Also it's not impossible that there actually was something happening there that could explain a real difference. If so it would definately be possible to meaure it.
Or it was just in his imagination. Or maybe oxidised contacts that was "cleaned" by removing the old cable and inserting the new one.. of course he would be a believer after that.
Dirty or oxidised contacts is a real source of degradation.
/Peter
It may sound silly,but I am begining to believe that engineers and audiophiles(or "audiophiles" )actually say the same thing.Pan says and it is clear that we can control the final effect that a cable can have to the sound.So,in a given system,two differently engineered cables will make the sound different.The engineer knows this if he is asked to do it.The audiophile has to try and find which of the two makes his system sound"better",and the "audiophile" simply buys the most expensive(usually).🙂
Panicos K said:
I dont
because I cant
but I proably would
if I could
Nah, I really only like the things I have made myself...DIY forever 😎
edit, one OT thing though...one of these days I will have to build one of the proven DIY speaker design, just to see how good they really are
And yes, I do envy the very skilled people in here who makes electronics into art form...tube builders especially, though I dont own anything with tubes, but I suppose I would if only I could
Fore now I will have to do making my SS gear sound like if it was tubes
Yeah, I guess I am a geek to others, and hopelessly audiophiled forever, almost born so, and will happily die so 🙂
Pan said:
Well,
if you like, i do not mind if you set the adverb "subjectively"
as prefix to all descriptions concerning auditive experience.
Resolution in terms of amplitude and time is indeed higher
with modern measurement gear.
But measurement gear has no perception.
Did you know e.g. that if you reduce the amplitude quantisation
of PCM Data to 1 bit, which means only transmitting the sign of
the signal, we are still able to distinguish male from female
voices ? Or known from unknown speakers ? And IDENTIFY a
known speaker, out of a group of speakers when recordings
of several speakers with that reduced quality are presented ?
Provided, that the bandwidth is not much worse than a
telephone ...
Have you ever observed a spectrum analyser or a high qualitity
oscilloscope doing those tasks ?
Our hearing system is a perceptive system. Its major merit is
not having ultra high resolution in the time or frequency domain.
It has an outstanding ability to integrate several aspects of
a signal to form a perceptive event, thereby dynamically shifting
weight of certain parameters and compare with what has been
heard before ...
Of cause you can fool the system by switching a lamp on and
off in front of the listener, when simultaneously swapping the
audio setting ... maybe you can fool it too by changing the
temperature of the listeners seat or by telling the price of a cable
before listening to. Or by simply saying the word "gold" or
"copper" before listening.
This thread seems interesting though (or because) the ice
we are standing on (especially those guys - including myself-
who claim hearing differences between cables e.g.) is very thin.
I know that.
Furthermore i agree that "different" in itself does not mean
better or worse. It takes time and experimenting to turn
differences in audio settings into a gradual and subjective
improvement of a system.
But guys, if it was not for differences and the possibility of
improving systems, why do we spend our time in discussing
those issues in this forum ?
We could stop DIYing and buy standard gear, a cable of
a certain quality would be "auditively transparent", nothing
to improve. Stop. Thats it. The same would hold for other
components. An Amp with distortion parameters below a certain
level, would be "transparent". But nobody would claim e.g.
two different power amps sound the same, would someone ?
Of cause we run the risk of overestimating certain technical
aspects of audio gear, while neglecting others. To me the art
is to keep open minded to all possible aspects and be able
to change the (personal) portfolio of what is important from
time to time.
Kind regards
panomaniac said:
One of mine has a fan that comes on when it gets warm, but the others sound the same...😀
LineArray. I also liked your post, a lot of folk wouldn't admit that they could be on very thin ice.
On Amps, there could be a difference between saying an amp sounds the same, and 'can sound the same'.
I have been fooled several times. Once I was comparing my SE tube amp with my Class D amp and during a certain part of the music I thought "that's a little conjested I wonder how much better the Class D amp could resolve that?" and got up to switch amps only to discover I was already listening to the Class D.
Very good post, Oliver!
Moreover besides, that our ears not alike, our brain digests the data on a different manner.
Moreover besides, that our ears not alike, our brain digests the data on a different manner.
A few things regarding cables in audio system.
It is actually possible to measure R L C of cables.
Resistance, Inductance, Capacitance.
It is even possible to to get slightly different values of R, L, C from very high class Cables.
Regarding interconnect cables, most experts agree that the very small Inductance and Resistance
is practically irrelevant in a standard and good one.
As these cables work into high very impedances relative the cable impedance.
Capacitance can be an issue if it is high (read several 10 of nF) and the signal has very high bandwidth.
Good interconnects have only like 100-200 pF per meter.
Of course the length of cables, if they are several 10 meter, will start to add up.
Regarding speaker cables, most experts agree that the Inductance and Capacitance
is practically irrelevant in a standard and good one.
The resistance should not be too high. Not in relation to the impedances we can find in speakers. 4-8 Ohm.
A well dimensioned speaker cable maybe have a resistance of some 10-100 mOhm per meter.
Of course the length of cables, if they are several 10 meter, will start to add up.
Most people that know analog signal theory and cables behavior at radio frequencies
will tell you, that the effect of normal, good standard and correctly dimensioned audio cables of any kind
used within the frequencies of audio gear
has so minute, small effect that it is almost impossible to measure.
And before we should be bothered,
there are so many other components, active (amplifiers, transistors) as well as passive (speaker coils, x-overs, filters, power supply)
that we do not have to put our good cables into the picture.
And even if we can measure very small, in the context, values of R, L, C
and the effect of those qualities,
we still have to put the audio signal theough the Electro-Magnetic field of Speakers drivers, tweeters.
There is actually a limit to the resolution you can get,
when you send a signal thorugh the hysteres in a magnetic transducer.
This is the device that has to convert Electrical Energy into Mechanical Energy. Into sound in air.
And the final obsticle will be the furniture and shape of your listening room.
And eventual dirt swirling around in the air of your environment 😀 And in your ears 😀
Bottomline:
----------
I do not believe in cable sound effects that I can ever hear.
Not if I follow the recommended standard electrical quality of audio cables.
If I could hear it is more because I do not know what a good sufficient audio cable is.
Lineup 🙂
It is actually possible to measure R L C of cables.
Resistance, Inductance, Capacitance.
It is even possible to to get slightly different values of R, L, C from very high class Cables.
Regarding interconnect cables, most experts agree that the very small Inductance and Resistance
is practically irrelevant in a standard and good one.
As these cables work into high very impedances relative the cable impedance.
Capacitance can be an issue if it is high (read several 10 of nF) and the signal has very high bandwidth.
Good interconnects have only like 100-200 pF per meter.
Of course the length of cables, if they are several 10 meter, will start to add up.
Regarding speaker cables, most experts agree that the Inductance and Capacitance
is practically irrelevant in a standard and good one.
The resistance should not be too high. Not in relation to the impedances we can find in speakers. 4-8 Ohm.
A well dimensioned speaker cable maybe have a resistance of some 10-100 mOhm per meter.
Of course the length of cables, if they are several 10 meter, will start to add up.
Most people that know analog signal theory and cables behavior at radio frequencies
will tell you, that the effect of normal, good standard and correctly dimensioned audio cables of any kind
used within the frequencies of audio gear
has so minute, small effect that it is almost impossible to measure.
And before we should be bothered,
there are so many other components, active (amplifiers, transistors) as well as passive (speaker coils, x-overs, filters, power supply)
that we do not have to put our good cables into the picture.
And even if we can measure very small, in the context, values of R, L, C
and the effect of those qualities,
we still have to put the audio signal theough the Electro-Magnetic field of Speakers drivers, tweeters.
There is actually a limit to the resolution you can get,
when you send a signal thorugh the hysteres in a magnetic transducer.
This is the device that has to convert Electrical Energy into Mechanical Energy. Into sound in air.
And the final obsticle will be the furniture and shape of your listening room.
And eventual dirt swirling around in the air of your environment 😀 And in your ears 😀
Bottomline:
----------
I do not believe in cable sound effects that I can ever hear.
Not if I follow the recommended standard electrical quality of audio cables.
If I could hear it is more because I do not know what a good sufficient audio cable is.
Lineup 🙂
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