cbdb said:
I see this nonsense lives on. It seems the ears can detect timing differences of less than 1uS. Is this less than 10kHz?
Recently I heard some talk about audio power cables making a difference in gaming PCs.😀 This is way out of my league.
No, but interaural time differences and audibility of the audio spectrum is not the same thing. Or did I get you wrong?
/Peter
/Peter
LineArray said:
Such a cable is highly capacitive and will also be suspicious to EMI/RFI.
Do you kow the output impedance of the driving stage?
A properly made interconnect is inaudible in the signal chain. This does not mean that all cables sound the same, since it is perfectly possible to make a cable that is inferior and affect the signal audibly.
/Peter
salas said:
What is a casual listener?An inferior kind of listener?Hope we don't drive things that far
Very true,something is very wrong here,or, very obvious perhaps?
A casual listener is a listener that isn't passionate about audiophile issues. If with good judgment and willing to focus, can be the best referee.
Are the cable peoples believing that these special cables add resolution..or see deeper in the mix..? I am no expert, but at one time when I thought expensive cables did add resolution it was in fact false detail. Thus tipping a certain frequency spot. I can see a low pf cable bieng of great help for obviouse reasons, TVC, passive etc. The youngsters with good high frequency hearing & have the hours behind them to KNOW what false detail is has me wondering. Resolution is resolution period & anything else as far as sonic detail is false. Just a tweeked frequency responce. I can see getting rid of caps from signal chain as a upward move in resolution,. I am fully aware that copper, silver, etc, etc, no matter how it is drawn or made does sound differant , but useing these materials for true higher resolution in not something I personally believe in. Some one here compared my likeing for top flight OT's to cable junkie,....this is not the case & I am sure Bud P, D .Slage etc, would shoot holes in such thinking, even though I am sure Bud likes his cables. Magnetics are a entire thread on it's own. For the DIY types I suppose there is no changing the belief, but for non DIY types I highly suggest to get off that wagon & learn work on, & or build your own your amps & speakers themselves & learn what really does what. So basically I am asking to the higher resolution from cables believers is what exactly are you hearing differant from persay a through away RatShack cable of short leghnth.
Thanks J & G
J & G
Thanks J & G
J & G
In my opinion no cable can make things better,only less bad.Many here said ok,there are differences,but they are small and certainly not worth the cost.We all agree,even those who find these differences a bit more obvious.Cost,is as so many other things,up to the individual.One pays some more money for a cable,other pays more money on a good looking amp enclosure.The amplifier works just fine with a cheaper cable,as well as a cheaper enclosure,even no enclosure at all.
I believe in better than average cable materials for insulation and metal purity and although as I said many times I am not so well educated as our engineer friends here,I believe that these details make a difference.We are trying with a friend to "test" two similar speaker cables these days.One is a 12awg solid core high purity OCC and polyethylene insulated ,and the other a 12awg pvc bought from elecric shop.To keep things as constant as possible,we will keep +/- conductors parallel so that if any difference is heard will be logical to be because of the materials difference.I will post our findings next week if anyone cares.🙂
JandG,what are in your opinion possible factors that could improve resolution as you said?
I believe in better than average cable materials for insulation and metal purity and although as I said many times I am not so well educated as our engineer friends here,I believe that these details make a difference.We are trying with a friend to "test" two similar speaker cables these days.One is a 12awg solid core high purity OCC and polyethylene insulated ,and the other a 12awg pvc bought from elecric shop.To keep things as constant as possible,we will keep +/- conductors parallel so that if any difference is heard will be logical to be because of the materials difference.I will post our findings next week if anyone cares.🙂
JandG,what are in your opinion possible factors that could improve resolution as you said?
salas said:
Better yet isn't even cognizant of them. The ideal test subject is arguably one who doesn't know an audio system uses wires.
JandG said:
Subjectively, my experience is very similar to yours. Obviously wire cannot really add resolution. But it also is quite incapable technically to "tipping a certain frequency spot". No matter what you feel subjectively this is not what happens.
Would a system wired entirely with boutique cables have a better resolution? Probably not but this is not what this thread is about. It questions whether cables make any difference or not. The fact that they modify the signal in a way which is pretty much impossible to measure is fascinating on its own.
Cables provide an easy way to change the perceived sound and not only tonally. Some cables somehow provide an artificial, but all the same impressive improvement in soundstage. Others are really good at removing harshness.
For some reason nearly all cable opponents get really aggitated about pricing. It's something i personally don't understand. Why is pricing important in this argument? What if all cables cost the same but still sound different? Would these people finally find peace? Would they move their energies to bottled water? 🙂
What we know,
cables can and do affect the sound.
Cables that actually affect the sound can with measurements be shown to have weaknesses . Changing these weaknesses removes the audible effect.
Stille some people claim to hear things in cables that can't be explained with measurements. When these cables and listeners are put into a blind test the audible difference is all of a sudden gone!
This we know, and there are a lot we believe also.. 🙂
edit: I should add that I have heard differences in cables that I thought could not be rationally explained, but that was before I learned how small changes in FR we can detect. And then there is the EMI/RFI issue. No magic, no mystery as far as we know.
/Peter
cables can and do affect the sound.
Cables that actually affect the sound can with measurements be shown to have weaknesses . Changing these weaknesses removes the audible effect.
Stille some people claim to hear things in cables that can't be explained with measurements. When these cables and listeners are put into a blind test the audible difference is all of a sudden gone!
This we know, and there are a lot we believe also.. 🙂
edit: I should add that I have heard differences in cables that I thought could not be rationally explained, but that was before I learned how small changes in FR we can detect. And then there is the EMI/RFI issue. No magic, no mystery as far as we know.
/Peter
Pan said:
The general relation of human perception vs. measurments is:
The perception of human senses is only a fraction of what we can measure with manmade instruments.
We get, even if we do not think so,
very limited information of things around us
using only our sensors of our body.
Visual, eyes:
Can we see molecules? No.
Can we measure and 'see' using instruments? Yes. Electronmicroscopes.
Can we see very far located stars? No.
Can we observe such stars using enormous telescopes & radiowaves? Yes.
Can I sense one earthquake of magnitude 4 in northern Japan? No.
Can we register such earthquakes in my country using seismograf? Yes.
My logic tells me:
Why should our ears be so much better than instruments we can make?
Pan said:
What weaknesses in your opinion are those that effect sound,and how could you remove or "change" these weaknesses?This logic,suggests that only two totally identical cables can sound the same.The "weaknesses"of one cable are in fact its difference compared to a different cable?And finally,when you say weaknesses I assume you mean compared to a theorwtically "perfect" cable,and how would you define "perfect" cable?
Cables... and Babels
I wanted to call the attention for it if there is a visible difference between the cables only with my above little story, why not could be audible?
At the same time from my own part I do not ascribe rabid big significance to the cabling. (What sacrilege!) I will not pay serious monies mainly some miracle onto cable. To interconnect I use RG-58 cable for example.
If for the bits good...
I believe it accordingly,harping on other topics would be more useful, than to talk about the sound engineer's and its devices' effects for example.
I tried to harp on this question early already, but shows in that manner, vainly. It may be concerned, that uninteresting, since it is possible to exchange cable in the system, the engineers though not. And I do not dare to mention the artistic side of the things already then! Hello Lineup! While I fight my message here, you only some scribble?
With a respectful greeting:
Gyuri is your friend!
I listen to Chopin music meanwhile.
I wanted to call the attention for it if there is a visible difference between the cables only with my above little story, why not could be audible?
At the same time from my own part I do not ascribe rabid big significance to the cabling. (What sacrilege!) I will not pay serious monies mainly some miracle onto cable. To interconnect I use RG-58 cable for example.
If for the bits good...
I believe it accordingly,harping on other topics would be more useful, than to talk about the sound engineer's and its devices' effects for example.
I tried to harp on this question early already, but shows in that manner, vainly. It may be concerned, that uninteresting, since it is possible to exchange cable in the system, the engineers though not. And I do not dare to mention the artistic side of the things already then! Hello Lineup! While I fight my message here, you only some scribble?
With a respectful greeting:
Gyuri is your friend!
I listen to Chopin music meanwhile.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.