I quite agree that listening and feeling the music is a very quick way to make a decision. Normally if I'm at a HiFi show, I can just walk in there and listen for less than a minute to know whether things are right or wrong. But if you want to figure out what is wrong, this is a different story.audio-kraut said:
When you listen to music in a casual manner, it's very common that lots of options are acceptable, even if they are different. The key is the more types of music you have listened to live and unamplified, the more you get a feeling how each instrument responds so you get more feeling what is correct. Vocals are a bit more tricky.
If we talk about speaker cables, which I have more experience dealing with, it really effects back EMF effect on amplifiers. I found that out after someone told me that two pairs of my speakers revealed different levels of detail, which I finally isolated to internal speaker cables of about 45cm in length. Narrowing the issue to three different cables, one was giving less detail, one was giving good detail but a bit of glaze in the cymbal timbre, and one was quite precise.
Bear in mind that people in different countries will have different preferences, this does not seem like a secret in mass market driver suppliers.
Yes, but experienced people know when to run when they hear danger, while youngster might just ignore it as background noise with no feeling what so ever.huy5005 said:
😀
Playing with audio is fun. Some can hear differences and others can't . Let's just leave it at that. Just be smart and don't take out a second mortgage for your hobby.
Hmm, Oregon. It reminds me once when I asked my travel agent to schedule a flight into Portland. When I first got the tickets, I could not figure out why the time difference was way different from my understanding. Good thing I found out in time.
Soongsc,
What amplifier did you use for the 45cm speaker cable tests?
I have never compared speaker cables but did attend a number of sessions of interconnect AB tests. I can say cables do make a difference in sound but unless something is terribly wrong (such as very thin cable, 5m cable, etc) the difference is subtle and it is not worth the money to get high end cables.
I also hold a belief that cables make a larger difference with tube amplifiers (due to large output impedance, etc) but with very well designed modern solid state amplifiers, cables make little difference if at all. My CD player and preamp have very low output impedance (and all with a 100R -200R resistor at the output) while the input of my preamp and power amp have relatively high input impedance. The impedance curve of my speakers shows variations of no more than 2R from 100Hz to 20kHz. I can not think of anything scientific other than the factors of R, C, L and noise shielding that could make a difference. Skin effects, etc, are too fancy to me.
I don't doubt your findings but I guess your amplifier in your test would possibly be a tube / low power amplifier, yet the impedance curve of the speakers may vary significantly within the audio bandwidth.
Regards,
Bill
What amplifier did you use for the 45cm speaker cable tests?
I have never compared speaker cables but did attend a number of sessions of interconnect AB tests. I can say cables do make a difference in sound but unless something is terribly wrong (such as very thin cable, 5m cable, etc) the difference is subtle and it is not worth the money to get high end cables.
I also hold a belief that cables make a larger difference with tube amplifiers (due to large output impedance, etc) but with very well designed modern solid state amplifiers, cables make little difference if at all. My CD player and preamp have very low output impedance (and all with a 100R -200R resistor at the output) while the input of my preamp and power amp have relatively high input impedance. The impedance curve of my speakers shows variations of no more than 2R from 100Hz to 20kHz. I can not think of anything scientific other than the factors of R, C, L and noise shielding that could make a difference. Skin effects, etc, are too fancy to me.
I don't doubt your findings but I guess your amplifier in your test would possibly be a tube / low power amplifier, yet the impedance curve of the speakers may vary significantly within the audio bandwidth.
Regards,
Bill
I was using a Hafler XL-280 for listening test, the speaker cables are Alpha Core (can't remember the exact model right now, but tend to think it's the Pythons) I can't remember which driving amp I used when I did measurements, but since the measurement results were consistent with listening impressions, I did not think it mattered. Do bear in mind that I started investigating this because someone tried different speakers of mine on his system and mentioned difference in detail revealing capability where cheaper components revealed more detail.HiFiNutNut said:
The speaker impedance was really quite flat by normal standards. 100Hz up, the impedance was between 8~10Ohm if I recall correctly, and below 100Hz there was one impedance peak that was probably 12 Ohm.
I quite agree that expensive cables are not always the best. We had a cable gathering probably half a year or so ago. People brought in very thick speaker cables of various lengths just for fun, some had brands and some were just taken from other applications. I had the Alpha Cores, and another braded cable that I did many years ago. In the end, most people liked my braded cable the most, probably because it was real clean.
I do have a theory: if the speaker impedance is flat enough, there will less influence by speaker cables. I might try that one day, but it's not of highest priority.
HiFiNutNut said:
Might seem to be so, but you couldn`t be more wrong. Solid state amps are extremely touchy on resistance due to low impedance and low current. The easy way is off course to use mono-blocks and short wires, but even short wires, including internal wiring and passive filters sucks the power out of the SS-amps. As so called dynamic speakers do in many ways.
After years of research trying to minimize dynamic loss in my DIY-speakersystem I`ve ended up with thick solid copper all over, and I mean thick. Oversized 1.order passive filters, assymetric cabinet w. absolute no absorbers; diffractors do the job. And off course a totally rebuilt amp w. custom heavy gauge trafos and powercircuits aso. No stranded wires left.
Result? Horn-systems sounds kinda dull 😉
analog_sa said:
Hi, young and gullible is understandable. I should have wrote "the brain will follow", as you can't hear without it. My brain thinks that most of the 'huge differences' heard with cables are either simple exagerations or generated by the brain itself.
The failure of DBTs to reveal really small differences is proof that the brain affects what we hear, as the sound itself doesn't change just because we are being tested.
Cheers 🙂
Here is the DEFINITVE answer once and for all:
Can you notice an improvement WITHOUT KNOWING that the cable has been switched.
If yes, then the cable makes a difference.
If no, then the difference (if any) is too subtle to be significant and certainly far less switching to different speakers. Definately not worth tens of dollars, much less hundreds.
Can you notice an improvement WITHOUT KNOWING that the cable has been switched.
If yes, then the cable makes a difference.
If no, then the difference (if any) is too subtle to be significant and certainly far less switching to different speakers. Definately not worth tens of dollars, much less hundreds.
Soongsc,
Well, I guess that no conclusion can be drawn from the events you described, because they were different speakers. Yes they were based on the same box, same crossover, same design, etc, but driver variations will swallow any cable variations. Crossover component variations may well be up to 5%.
A cable of 45cm length made from normal or exotic material would not have a variation of, say, 0.1R. It would be well below that.
For the pair of Dynaudio T330D (USD$1000 a pair second hand if you are lucky these days), I measured 0.5R difference between 1kHz to 5kHz.
Regards,
Bill
Well, I guess that no conclusion can be drawn from the events you described, because they were different speakers. Yes they were based on the same box, same crossover, same design, etc, but driver variations will swallow any cable variations. Crossover component variations may well be up to 5%.
A cable of 45cm length made from normal or exotic material would not have a variation of, say, 0.1R. It would be well below that.
For the pair of Dynaudio T330D (USD$1000 a pair second hand if you are lucky these days), I measured 0.5R difference between 1kHz to 5kHz.
Regards,
Bill
Well, Cables do make a difference because cables have resistance, capacitance and inductance, as well as EMF (electro-magnetic field) rejection in interconnects.
If the interconnects are very well shielded then the last one is not an issue.
While the capacitance and inductance can influence the sound, they are usually so small and the effects are usually well above the audio bandwidth hence are usually not audible. You can work out the effects by using F = 1 / ( 2 x Pi x X x C) and F = 1 / ( 2 x Pi x X x L). Do different capacitance and inductance of cables influence the frequency response? Yes. Are they audible? Usually not.
So it comes down to the resistance. If your cable has a resistance of greater than 0.1R or 0.2R, I suspect that in a very low distortion system it is audible. But you need to have some very thin cable, or run the cable for more than 3-5 meters, or the cable uses "exotic" material, in order to get a 0.1-0.2R resistance.
And of course, put science aside, it does not matter if one believes in cables or not, as long as he enjoys it, believes in it. I, for example, ocassionally enjoy reading the cable debates, and sometimes fancy having some magic cables to enhance my audio enjoyments.
Regards,
Bill
If the interconnects are very well shielded then the last one is not an issue.
While the capacitance and inductance can influence the sound, they are usually so small and the effects are usually well above the audio bandwidth hence are usually not audible. You can work out the effects by using F = 1 / ( 2 x Pi x X x C) and F = 1 / ( 2 x Pi x X x L). Do different capacitance and inductance of cables influence the frequency response? Yes. Are they audible? Usually not.
So it comes down to the resistance. If your cable has a resistance of greater than 0.1R or 0.2R, I suspect that in a very low distortion system it is audible. But you need to have some very thin cable, or run the cable for more than 3-5 meters, or the cable uses "exotic" material, in order to get a 0.1-0.2R resistance.
And of course, put science aside, it does not matter if one believes in cables or not, as long as he enjoys it, believes in it. I, for example, ocassionally enjoy reading the cable debates, and sometimes fancy having some magic cables to enhance my audio enjoyments.
Regards,
Bill
Before I learnt the DIY stuff, I had once a friend who took a pair of $1,000 silver interconnect and plugged them into my system after some careful listening to the very good cables I used. We then swapped them a few times playing the same tracks.
Could we all hear the dfference? We most certainly did. Every single time, we believed that the silver cable sounded more "sparkle" at the top end. Although the difference was small, it was clearly audible.
It could be psychological, i.e. the trick of the brains. But we all heard the difference. The result was consistent.
So does a silver cable sound better?
After learning more about DIY, I now understand that if I change a tweeter resistor from 1.5R to 1.47R, I would be able to make the system sound far more "sparkle" at the top end comparing to using the silver cable. It would be $1 vs $1,000.
In another cable AB tests done in my other friends' house, another pair of cheaper silver interconnect clearly destroyed the sound by removing a substantial amount of bass from the music.
I sometimes wonder that expensive, esotic cables would probably work by deliberately altering the frequency response to let people hear the difference and get their products sold. The difference is not necessarily better. It is just different. For example, having larger resistence in cables would sometimes result in higher damping, making the bass stronger with some systems. If one's system lacks of bass, such cables would most certainly make the system sound more balanced. But in any case, the effects are so small and I would invest in equipments rather than cables.
Enjoy your cables!
Regards,
Bill
Could we all hear the dfference? We most certainly did. Every single time, we believed that the silver cable sounded more "sparkle" at the top end. Although the difference was small, it was clearly audible.
It could be psychological, i.e. the trick of the brains. But we all heard the difference. The result was consistent.
So does a silver cable sound better?
After learning more about DIY, I now understand that if I change a tweeter resistor from 1.5R to 1.47R, I would be able to make the system sound far more "sparkle" at the top end comparing to using the silver cable. It would be $1 vs $1,000.
In another cable AB tests done in my other friends' house, another pair of cheaper silver interconnect clearly destroyed the sound by removing a substantial amount of bass from the music.
I sometimes wonder that expensive, esotic cables would probably work by deliberately altering the frequency response to let people hear the difference and get their products sold. The difference is not necessarily better. It is just different. For example, having larger resistence in cables would sometimes result in higher damping, making the bass stronger with some systems. If one's system lacks of bass, such cables would most certainly make the system sound more balanced. But in any case, the effects are so small and I would invest in equipments rather than cables.
Enjoy your cables!
Regards,
Bill
Hi,
It's not about better, it's about different.
Silver sounds pretty much as you describe it but it also has a lower resistance per running meter than say, copper.
That doesn't necessarily make it any better for a given system but it might for some.
In general, I'd say the better conductivity of the silver should be preferable but in some systems the typical sound of silver may well upset the balance of it.
Can you tweak a system to your taste by changing cables? IMO you can and you can easily overdo it just the same.
Ciao, 😉
It's not about better, it's about different.
Silver sounds pretty much as you describe it but it also has a lower resistance per running meter than say, copper.
That doesn't necessarily make it any better for a given system but it might for some.
In general, I'd say the better conductivity of the silver should be preferable but in some systems the typical sound of silver may well upset the balance of it.
Can you tweak a system to your taste by changing cables? IMO you can and you can easily overdo it just the same.
Ciao, 😉
HiFiNutNut, to just look at equations and theory only gives a general understanding and preduction of results that allow a design to become acceptable. To limits oneself by these really binds ones hands. You just have to get down and do tests and measurements youself.😉
I should have already mentioned my measurement experience early in this thread.
My old saying: "I'm just sharing my own experience with no intent to convince anyone." You can read through what I have found, if it's of value to you, fine; if not, fine.
I should have already mentioned my measurement experience early in this thread.
My old saying: "I'm just sharing my own experience with no intent to convince anyone." You can read through what I have found, if it's of value to you, fine; if not, fine.
Basically, cable structure seems to create more difference. When the structure provides performance improvement to a certain point, then the material becomes critical. All this, however, needs a good speaker for technical improvements and sonic improvements to correlate. If they don't, the speaker and speaker/amplifier interaction are the first places to look.
I have to confess that I don't trust the interconnects shipped by manufacturers, which are usally the same as those sold by Radioshaks, Jaycar, etc.
For interconnects, the shielding must be strong. I like thick interconnects because the shield (connected to ground) is much further away from the core (signal) therefore capacitance is much reduced. This can result in better high frequncy response.
I have some extremely good DIY interconnects. I imgaine if I have to buy interconnects, I won't get anything under $50 but I probably won't pay for anything above $200.
For speaker cables, I like to use the thick OFC cables available from WEB Components that is sold for about $5-$7 per metre.
For interconnects, the shielding must be strong. I like thick interconnects because the shield (connected to ground) is much further away from the core (signal) therefore capacitance is much reduced. This can result in better high frequncy response.
I have some extremely good DIY interconnects. I imgaine if I have to buy interconnects, I won't get anything under $50 but I probably won't pay for anything above $200.
For speaker cables, I like to use the thick OFC cables available from WEB Components that is sold for about $5-$7 per metre.
Soongsc,
I totally agree with your philosophy.
I have not read your early measurements (which page?) as this thread is getting quite long.
Regards,
Bill
I totally agree with your philosophy.
I have not read your early measurements (which page?) as this thread is getting quite long.
Regards,
Bill
fdegrove,
I totally agree. But silver cables are very expensive. If I use oxigen free copper (OFC) that is twice or 3 times as thick as the silver cable, would I end up having lower resistence at a much affordable price?
Regards,
Bill
I totally agree. But silver cables are very expensive. If I use oxigen free copper (OFC) that is twice or 3 times as thick as the silver cable, would I end up having lower resistence at a much affordable price?
Regards,
Bill
It takes as long for me to find it as you. But basically, change the cables and measure the change in harmonics at the speaker terminals (for internal wiring, driver terminals)HiFiNutNut said:
I think constant resistance or capacity is not as
harmful as dynamically changing parameters due to
vibrational impact on cables and components.
Microphony is an issue with stage equipment.
Typically there are very long cables for microphones and
pickups.
In the Hifi World the effects seem to be neglected,
which does not mean, they are not present.
I mentioned in another thread, that i own a Solid State Amp
e.g. which gives an audible "bang" to the speaker terminals,
when you slap with your hand on the case while volume is
turned up with the phono input turned on ...
With tube amps i think nobody would suggest the effect is
not there.
Cables react on vibration too ...
Isolation/Damping of cables and components from/of vibration
improves the quality of Reproduction.
Cheers
harmful as dynamically changing parameters due to
vibrational impact on cables and components.
Microphony is an issue with stage equipment.
Typically there are very long cables for microphones and
pickups.
In the Hifi World the effects seem to be neglected,
which does not mean, they are not present.
I mentioned in another thread, that i own a Solid State Amp
e.g. which gives an audible "bang" to the speaker terminals,
when you slap with your hand on the case while volume is
turned up with the phono input turned on ...
With tube amps i think nobody would suggest the effect is
not there.
Cables react on vibration too ...
Isolation/Damping of cables and components from/of vibration
improves the quality of Reproduction.
Cheers
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