Andre Visser said:Yes its true, although some brains are more easilly pleased than others.
Agreement at last. 🙂
I don't really think this is what happens with cables; especially when they are just switched in without any explanation what to expect.
analog_sa said:
You mentioned three sets of wires-the original turntable wires, the wires which came with your Ortofon cartridge and Cardas wire and clips you ordered.
Were all three sets of wires the same length?
Because factors such as parasitic capacitance and parasitic oscillation might well be different if the following conditions vary among the three sets of wire:
A) The wires are just long enough to reach from the cartridge to the headshell terminals and are consequently in a straight line between those points. The mechanics of installation would seem to prevent this condition but I thought I would include it;
B) The wires are somewhat longer than that and bend inward, rubbing against each other;
C) The wires are somewhat longer than that and bend outward, rubbing against nothing.
D) The wires are all tangled up and it is impossible to say at what points they approach each other and move away from each other.
I would think that D would be the norm and that each installation would result in a different wire arrangement, even using the same wires, cartridge and headshell.
I apologize if these factors were addressed in previous posts in this thread, I have not read the entire thread.
I think this is interesting that headshell wires are mentioned. These carry a much smaller signal than other parts of the audio link. I think contact quality probably would make significant difference.
chrisb said:
My favorite snip :
Please read the others posts in that thread, it's hilarious really !
http://www.amazon.com/review/RF074827BNTI6/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#RF074827BNTI6
My 2 Cents
Hello soongsc! If I understand what you mean when you state: I don't really think this is what happens with cables; especially when they are just switched in without any explanation what to expect. wthen we're in 100% agreement!
There was a time when I vehemently believed that wire was wire, period. There was no way one 1M IC or a 3M speaker wire could "sound" any different than any other 1M IC or a 3M speaker wire would! One day an audio dealer I did at least 80% of my business with suggested I try upgraded from my Rat Shack wires to some good wires instead of upgrading from my $2K preamp to a $4k preamp, as I had wanted to do.
I was so furious at this suggestion ---{because at that time I felt when audio sales personal attempted to sell audiophile wires they were playing me for a fool}--- that I stated I'd never do business there again. Thank GOD in the end I relented and allowed them to do a direct demonstration of my IC and speaker wires vs some Audioquest ICs and speaker wires.
Now remember my firm belief was that wires couldn't influence sound and my expectation was to hear no differeneces at all. Yet differences are what I heard and it was readily apparent that the Audioquest wires were sonically superior to the Rat Shack wires!
So "if" expectation bias is the reason why audiophiles believe wires sound better as so many objectivists insist, why didn't my expectation bias influenence me not to hear any differences in the above example I provided?
For those who don't believe or hear wires making a difference, consider yourselves blessed for you get to save yourselves some extra $$$$$$ you can spend elsewhere on your audio system. However for those of us who do believe or hear wires making a difference we'll buy them for the improvement we believe & hear wires making, period. What I don't understand is why does that bother you others so much when we do this? I know it doesn't bother me ---{or any of my audio friends}--- one iota when those of you who disagree with us, don't buy better wires for your systems.
Perhaps the real question all you naysayers should be asking yourselves is: "Why do you give a horses pa-toot what others do with their audio systems?" It's the answer to that question, that will provide you all with some insight to what your real motives are.
Thetubeguy1954
Hello soongsc! If I understand what you mean when you state: I don't really think this is what happens with cables; especially when they are just switched in without any explanation what to expect. wthen we're in 100% agreement!
There was a time when I vehemently believed that wire was wire, period. There was no way one 1M IC or a 3M speaker wire could "sound" any different than any other 1M IC or a 3M speaker wire would! One day an audio dealer I did at least 80% of my business with suggested I try upgraded from my Rat Shack wires to some good wires instead of upgrading from my $2K preamp to a $4k preamp, as I had wanted to do.
I was so furious at this suggestion ---{because at that time I felt when audio sales personal attempted to sell audiophile wires they were playing me for a fool}--- that I stated I'd never do business there again. Thank GOD in the end I relented and allowed them to do a direct demonstration of my IC and speaker wires vs some Audioquest ICs and speaker wires.
Now remember my firm belief was that wires couldn't influence sound and my expectation was to hear no differeneces at all. Yet differences are what I heard and it was readily apparent that the Audioquest wires were sonically superior to the Rat Shack wires!
So "if" expectation bias is the reason why audiophiles believe wires sound better as so many objectivists insist, why didn't my expectation bias influenence me not to hear any differences in the above example I provided?
For those who don't believe or hear wires making a difference, consider yourselves blessed for you get to save yourselves some extra $$$$$$ you can spend elsewhere on your audio system. However for those of us who do believe or hear wires making a difference we'll buy them for the improvement we believe & hear wires making, period. What I don't understand is why does that bother you others so much when we do this? I know it doesn't bother me ---{or any of my audio friends}--- one iota when those of you who disagree with us, don't buy better wires for your systems.
Perhaps the real question all you naysayers should be asking yourselves is: "Why do you give a horses pa-toot what others do with their audio systems?" It's the answer to that question, that will provide you all with some insight to what your real motives are.
Thetubeguy1954
kelticwizard said:
Parasitic what? This comparison was done at the time in a Linn Ittok arm using it's original and quite modest wiring harness: some dubious wire running internally, 5 pin mini din and some even more dubious shielded cable terminated with very mundane jacks. The cartridge was a mid range moving coil (Kontrapunkt B) and the preamps were various; either transformer or fet input.
This cartridge is hardly affected from huge amounts of capacitance, let alone variations in the femtofarad range. There is nothing that can conceivably oscillate. My ears are not particularly sensitive towards cartridge loading as well: i may hear the difference between 470R and 1k but consider it unimportant and negligible compared to the difference between the headshell links.
soongsc makes a good point about the contact quality. And i think the Ortofon uses a crimped, rather than soldered connection between wire and clip.
Attachments
So the Ortofon is the top one in the picture and the stock Linn wire is the bottom one?
The headshell wire you are using now-is that closer in length to the Linn or the Ortofon?
The headshell wire you are using now-is that closer in length to the Linn or the Ortofon?
Sorry. Forgot to explain. Top is Cardas; below is Ortofon. The Linn wires (not shown) are currenly used as the Cardas clips are too long for some cartridges.
I have proved to myself that expensive cabling is no longer needed in my life. I get by with Rat Shack throw away's. My systems all sound good. Well to me, wife & kids & a few others who might pop in. Was a time when I suspected that sh.. from Mars wrapped in leather to my 1st tubes in the front end actually made a differance. Thank the good Lord I am done with all that. I am to old @ 41 to hear any resolution differances in ANY cable anywhere in any system. If something changes it is because of pf/ etc, etc, roll off & false tipped up detail. Just what I have figured out for myself in my journey. 1 good thing about getting older is cabling goes out the window & you can spend the hard earned money where it should go,,, DIY tube amps, speakers, front end, etc..
J & G
J & G
JandG said:
Hi JandG,
i agree concerning spending too much money on that.
It is not necessary IMO.
I fully disagree to the standpoint, that cables do not make
any difference. A friend of mine inspired me to some
experimenting with cables. What i believe is that the Quality of
cables and connectors have great impact on sonic quality,
everywhere in the chain. Regardless if power supply, connections
between program source and amplifier or speaker wire ...
One major point is the immunity of connections, cables and
components like amps e.g. against vibration. Damping is needed
to reduce microphony in the chain.
Microphony in the chain reduces audibility of detail and imageing.
Concerning Age: I am 43 Years old, i hear differences. Good
hearing is not defined by the upper frequency limit of perception
solely, which in fact lowers with age ...
IMO musical perception is also a matter of experience, which
can compensate to some degree the inevitable signs of age from
which our body is affected.
(You just have to believe in that, and you
feel much younger 😀 ).
Kind regards
JandG said:
Ha, ha. Too funny. Tell this to John Curl; i'm sure he'll be sympathetic to your plight 😉 Were you still hearing cables at 39?
To use terms as "expensive cabling" is a bit unfair to the entire cable argument. Any product can be expensive to some people. I have no doubt that no far from me lives someone who would find your Ratshack cables completely unaffordable. What does that prove? Reasonably good cables are surprisingly affordable for most people.
What would you do once you get to my age? Will you be done with tweeters?
Tweeters,.. that is ironic because I actually can listen to drivers that drop like a rock @ 10k & be happy. Just depends what they do before that *s*. My Rat Shack cables are literaly the ones found @ Goodwill & never pay more than about nothing for them. I am a DIY nut & did go WAY off the deep end with wire/ cables etc. I was literally trying to get stuff NASA has stashed & then some. tried to much stuff to feel good about to tell. Thing is when you DIY everything in your system cables become a problem for me. Take a Fisher 200 for example. Old as the hills but hard to beat. My DIY SET & etc, etc amps have had in the past very expensive wire, then I redid one in Rat Shack solid core. mmmm I have never done silver, Mars metal, etc since.. I really do attribute this to age & hearing loss. I did at one time thought I could hear a differance. Those days are long gone. If you tell me my Hashimoto OT's will sound better with silver windings I would say maybe, but dought it. I can make more of a differance building a IT coupled SET, change op-points, change circuit, to my perfection, Magnetics are a enitire thread,change speaker systems, I am in no way caring about getting the .001 % of percieved betterment with solid silver through out & hardwired w/ silver wound OT & speaker coils if those type are used.
I feel I maxed out @ about 35. I have ringing now with any pitchy certain notes & any leghnth of high SPL. Which sucks because I like it loud....To many saws & stacks of Marshalls before I wore ear protection as I do now. $2k for O'Netics OT's or 2k for cables..? It would be the O'Netics OT's hands down everytime.
J & G
I feel I maxed out @ about 35. I have ringing now with any pitchy certain notes & any leghnth of high SPL. Which sucks because I like it loud....To many saws & stacks of Marshalls before I wore ear protection as I do now. $2k for O'Netics OT's or 2k for cables..? It would be the O'Netics OT's hands down everytime.
J & G
Cable debates are fun, and I believe, good for the brain. They don't lead to better sound, in actual fact they lead to worse sound.
The big picture is that no one in their right mind would even consider changing cables unless they were somehow disatisfied with the sound of their system and already had a belief that changing cables could alter the sound in a significant way.
The worse sound comes from obsessing over the sound, no cable you try is ever perfect for long, there is always something wrong with the sound, maybe this cable is better.................
From the very first time you 'hear' a difference you are in trouble, you may congratulate yourself that your system and ears are good enough to plainly hear these new things in the music...oh dear. It is like drugs, real fun to start with, but if you get strung out on cables, audio heaven becomes ever more distant
One side of the argument has science on it's side, and the other doesn't. Please don't be tempted to forgo science.
PS To stop 'hearing' the difference, read the science and embrace it, the ears will surely follow.
The big picture is that no one in their right mind would even consider changing cables unless they were somehow disatisfied with the sound of their system and already had a belief that changing cables could alter the sound in a significant way.
The worse sound comes from obsessing over the sound, no cable you try is ever perfect for long, there is always something wrong with the sound, maybe this cable is better.................
From the very first time you 'hear' a difference you are in trouble, you may congratulate yourself that your system and ears are good enough to plainly hear these new things in the music...oh dear. It is like drugs, real fun to start with, but if you get strung out on cables, audio heaven becomes ever more distant
One side of the argument has science on it's side, and the other doesn't. Please don't be tempted to forgo science.
PS To stop 'hearing' the difference, read the science and embrace it, the ears will surely follow.
JandG said:
I'm significantly older and judging by your description retained much better hearing but find myself not far off your position. For most magazine reviewers and regular consumers swapping cables is the extent of their DIY skill set. Once you have full access to the guts of the machine cables get shifted in the priority. For me a twisted pair of silver is about the limit I'll chase and - measured against the remaining financial and labour expenditure of completing a project - cheap.
I'm at least 10 older than you, and I find that they make more difference to me than when I was younger. This difference between now and when younger is the experience in what to listen for. But I do find that many cables are more tolarable.JandG said:
fredex said:
When young and gullible i got a useless degree in physics. By now all hope for the ears to follow is long gone.
JandG said:
A strange dilemma. As mentioned previously you can get reasonable wire for a lot less if you diy.
Btw, 99% of the cable critics will tell you you're nuts to pay 2k for transformers. Especially with shot ears. After all you only get wire and iron 🙂
Just go with your ears man.
Kuei Yang Wang is correct but
I don't think so too!!!. considering the high costs.
Trust me, most people will fail blind tests. Just put money on the speakers and amplifiers.... and get a decent cables.... 😉
About old vs. young hearing ability:
The fact is : young people hear things better than the old people.
Plus, many audiophiles have ears problems too 'cause they listen to loud musics.....
😀
Kuei Yang Wang is correct but
I don't think so too!!!. considering the high costs.
Trust me, most people will fail blind tests. Just put money on the speakers and amplifiers.... and get a decent cables.... 😉
About old vs. young hearing ability:
The fact is : young people hear things better than the old people.
Plus, many audiophiles have ears problems too 'cause they listen to loud musics.....
😀- Status
- Not open for further replies.