fredex said:
Hi,
Yes, this may well have to do with continuity of materials used.
Let me explain: imagine a designer having optimised a circuit by "listening" to a similar sonic fingerprint as found by combining materials found in solder. I.e. lead, tin, silver perhaps and god only knows what.
As a cable designer (among other occupations) I can tell from experience that this kind of continuity is not only important, it's also audible. One often hears that if one uses sivler ICs then one should also use silver LS cables and so on.
Solid strand cables whether copper or silver also tend to yield a more coherent sound than multi-strand and so on. I feel it's true even down to powercord wiring (asuming your household wiring is in fact solid corre as it often is in Europe and the UK).
Dielectric materials aso leave their sonic fingerprints, I dont know which is more true to the original, but at least dielectric absorbtion is easlily measurable. Not that the lowest figures are necessarily given the beter sound for everyone....
Musical reproduction is after all a subjective experience and we should accept it as such.
If we'd all be the same we'd not be arguing and had accepted the pale truth of stone cold measurements a long time ago....
That being said it's not that hard to assess and categorise a material's sound. (Various metals in casu) The Japanese did so almost thirty years ago already and did a fine job too.
Over the past fourty years I hardly heard a system that measured well and sounded good too. OTOH I heard plenty of great sounding systems that didn't measure too well.
I never heard a system that measured flawlessly and sounded like it. Why?
Cheers, 😉
I don't believe cables make a difference,any input?
Well, if you don't use them, you won't hear anything!
Dave🙂
Well, if you don't use them, you won't hear anything!
Dave🙂
fdegrove said:
Doesn't prove it, but it strongly suggests it.
However, we probably have two different ideas of what the "point" is.
😀
fdegrove said:
To nitpick I don't think there exists a system that has measured flawlessly. But in answer to your question why didn't the flawless system sound flawless, maybe it did, but you just didn't like the sound. As you said earlier in your post "... Musical reproduction is after all a subjective experience..."
Hi fdegrove my post 1992 asks a question any DIY person would want to know, that is 'what materials should I use in my projects. for best sound?' These effects could be cumlative so even though my poor ears may not pick up one instance of material use I should be able to hear the difference in the whole system with correct materials. If I can't turn to science for the answers (it can't be measured) then I must turn to those who can actually hear these effects. I thought you would be an ideal person to ask. Thanks.
fredex said:
They may be synergistic but definitely not cumulative. At least not IME. In fact i find it easier to pick the sonic effect of a discontinuity in a system, per example a single piece of silver wire, a single tantalum resistor, a single PIO cap or a single length of multistrand in a solid core system.
The most striking example i've ever had was the clear audibility of a set of new headshell wires (2-3cm) i brought into my system a few years ago. Would you try explaining this with RFI, or RLC effects 🙂
I might if I thought there was real effect eg dirty contacts on headshell can cause rectification of rf signals, changing leads could clean contacts, or your preamp could be unstable and the slightest change in capacitance caused by lead dressing could start or stop oscillation. If the effect was not just in your imagination what do you think was the cause?analog_sa said:
fredex said:
My expectations were biased towards mild to zero improvement, not the opposite. The headshell wires came with a new Ortofon cartridge and replaced the old ones in my Ittok. The original Ittok wire is not known for any audiophile magic and is probably the cheapest Linn had at hand. The sound with the new wire/clips became extremely unpleasant, against expectations and against any possible "dirty contacts" theory. I was so shocked i switched over several times.
The result of this experience was to order some proper Cardas clips and wire. This led to some mild improvement over the original Ittok wire, but nothing as shocking as the Ortofon.
Conclusion: pay attention to conductors; don't use any wire, even from reputable sources without testing it; short lengths and also poor quality jacks/sockets are enough to damage the signal.
It's also quite ironic that a manufacturer who should know better can pack such a freebie with a very decent cart.
analog_sa said:
Read the thread! It has all been explained over, and over, and over...... and it has nothing to do with sound waves.
Yes "brainwaves" it is. You can't have good sound without them.
I think the subjectivists have a blockage which prevents them from realising that good sound is not in the wires but in the brain.
I think the subjectivists have a blockage which prevents them from realising that good sound is not in the wires but in the brain.
Ya know, the other day somebody showed me a Mini and a Ferrari. Then we did a test. I was blindfolded and sat as a passenger in one of them (I didn't know which) and driven along the road at 30mph.
Stone me - it was hard to tell which car I was in. The engine noise at that speed was very similar, was the seat more comfortable, did the clunk as the door shut sound more "expensive", did the music system have more bass slam ... so hard to tell.
We did it 20 times.
Finally we all had to agree. Scientifically speaking a Mini is as good as a Ferrari. The apparent differences simply vanished with that blindfold on. Just because the Ferrari is more "red" and more expensive does not make it better ... these snake-oil car salesmen are laughing all the way to the bank with YOUR money!
IMO nobody should buy a Ferrari without doing this simple double-blind test. These blinded tests open your eyes.
Now I've painted my mini red, put my home-made prancing horse on the bonnet. The last laugh is on me - these poor, deluded, Ferrari-owning suckers!
😉
Stone me - it was hard to tell which car I was in. The engine noise at that speed was very similar, was the seat more comfortable, did the clunk as the door shut sound more "expensive", did the music system have more bass slam ... so hard to tell.
We did it 20 times.
Finally we all had to agree. Scientifically speaking a Mini is as good as a Ferrari. The apparent differences simply vanished with that blindfold on. Just because the Ferrari is more "red" and more expensive does not make it better ... these snake-oil car salesmen are laughing all the way to the bank with YOUR money!
IMO nobody should buy a Ferrari without doing this simple double-blind test. These blinded tests open your eyes.
Now I've painted my mini red, put my home-made prancing horse on the bonnet. The last laugh is on me - these poor, deluded, Ferrari-owning suckers!
😉
Alan Hope said:
Oh yeah! Well Alan, I have a Yugo that's faster than a Ferrari, that out accelerates, out brakes and out handles it too. I don't care that any stupid measurements by stupider scientists say that the measured 0-100 time of the Ferrari is lower in seconds. That the measured 100-0 distance is shorter in meters. That the measured top speed is higher in km/h. That the measured power to weight ratio is higher, along with measured lateral g', lower lap times, etc, etc, etc.
None of those silly, worthless numbers and graphs mean a thing, because subjectively, the Yugo is quicker, faster, stops and handles "better" than the Ferrari and will blow its doors off on a race track, especially the one in my backyard. However don't dare ask me to put myself or the Yugo to the test on any of your race tracks or test facilities. I don't have anything to prove to anyone. You must accept what I tell you about it's (unmeasurable) performance and my incredible driving skills as fact - Because I have typed this on the internet.
cheers,
AJ😉
Alan's car anology and AJinFLA's answer are entertaining, I particularly liked "These blinded tests open your eyes", but Brett is right.
Alan says.
I have to say there is no scientific evidence that red paint and emblems will improve your car's performance.
Likewise there is no scientific evidence that fancy cables will improve your stereo's performance.
Alan says.
I have to say there is no scientific evidence that red paint and emblems will improve your car's performance.
Likewise there is no scientific evidence that fancy cables will improve your stereo's performance.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.