tc-60guy. I am like a reformed smoker, I want to show the subjectivists the error of their ways, but hopefully not by attacking them, I used to be one of them. But I do like the sound of these gourmet cables, what wine do you recommend?
Andy Graddon said:
oooooo, and there they are in your lounge room, whispering in your ear to tell you what instruments are playing.
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Talk about big brother !!!!
That was a childish and rather silly statement.
Sonic signatures have been used by different law enforcement agencies for quite a while. Regardless of how they use the technology, the fact remains the same, the microphone is a lot more sensitive to the sound and will be able to pick up thing that your years and brains can't.
How high do you think you can hear Andy? Have you run the test lately? I have.
fredex said:
Howdy Fredex, My problem seems to be that I can't seem to seperate Merlot from Night train!
No need for BDTing then, you are lucky save money and enjoy yourself. I quite like glassy highs myself. The truth is there is no point in pretending to be a subjectivist if in reality your ears aren't up to ittc-60guy said:
😀
fredex said:
Hello Fredex!
I think as a "reformed" subjectivist you'll be hard pressed trying to show subjectivists the errors of their ways. I suppose following your line of thinking I'm a "reformed" objectivist! Many years ago when I still lived in Connecticut, I was for all intents and purposes an objectivist ---{at least when it came to cables I was!} I didn't believe wires could possibly influence the sound of my audio system. The way I saw it back then was all cables were, just a pice of wire, surrounded by a dielectric which in turn was covered with a pretty jacket. So how could cables possibly make any difference? I walked out of more than one audio salon when a salesman tried selling me highend wires because I believed they were attempting to rip me off of my hard earned $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
This following part is to the best of my recollection as it was well over 15-20 years ago, ok?
One day I wanted to upgrade my $2000 OCM 88 preamp for a $4000 Counterpoint SA5000 ---{remember I only though cables sounded the same, not audio components like amps, preamps, CD players etc.}--- So I went to the place where I bought my OCM reamp & power amp. Bernie, the owner asked me if I trusted him to do me right and I said yes, because he had always done so in the past. Well Bernie said instead of spending $2000 to upgrade the preamps invest that $2000 in wires and you'll get more of an improvement!
I was immediately furious, I told Bernie I would NEVER do business with him again. Thankfully Bernie took some time to sooth my dispostion and made this suggestion. Go home and get all your wires Tom. In the meantime I'll setup an exact duplicate of your system here ---{I bought my complete system from Bernie so that was easy for him to do}--- When you get back we'll compare your wires to some wires I'm suggesting you use. Then you listen and decide for yourself if wires do or don't make a difference. What do you have to lose? You can still buy the Counterpoint "if" I'm wrong, no?
So I went home and got my wires and a couple of my prized CD's. When I arrived Bernie took my wires {all Radio Shack}--- and hooked the duplicate of my system together. Next we dropped in one of my CD's and I listened. When the song ended Bernie asked what I thought. I said liked it of course as it sounded essentially like what I heard at home!
Ok Bernie said lets exchange preamps. So the OCM preamp was exchanged with the Counterpoint and my CD was played again. Once again when the song ended Bernie asked what I thought. I think it sounds a bit better I said. $2000 worth of better? Bernie asked. Well Bernie that's hard to say, what's $2000 worth of better supposed to sound like, I said. I remember Bernie laughing and saying something like $2000 worth of improvement SHOULD be immediately and significantly noticeable.
Now Bernie put the OCM 88 back into the system and played my song again. Once again it sounded just like it did at home (essentially) but not as good as when the Counterpoint was in the system. I was beginning to question whether the SA5000 was worth $2000 for upgrading, but probably would have bought it considering diminishing returns and all.
Now Bernie shut everything off and on one side he hooked up AudioQuest Emerald interconnects & speakerwire. I do know it was AudioQuest and the combo was equal to the $2000 I would have spent on the preamp.
Now before we continue remember:
1) I didn't believe wires influenced the sound of an audio system.
2) I didn't expect to hear any differences with these wires.
3) Hence anyone who believes in "Expectation Bias" should believe that my stong expectation to not hear a difference in cables should have influenced me to NOT hear a differences "if" the objectivist "Expectation Bias" theory is correct!
Once again Bernie played my CD. This time he played only the channel my wires were on. It sounded just as I expected it to sound and essentially like it did at my home. Then Bernie looked at me and said Ready? I said, yes! and Bernie now had only the channel with the Emeralds on it play. BAM! I was shocked at the level of improvement. It sounded so much realistic, I was absolutely amazed.
Please before coming up with a rebuttal allow me to finish my account of what happened that day....
Before the song was even complete I wanted to hear the system with all the emeralds attached. This time it was even better than before, deeper, wider soundstage and just all around more clear and realistic sounding. I couldn't believe a wire, dielectric and a jacket could influence the sound so much. To say I was shocked would be an understatement!
I was still a bit skeptical thinking perhaps the SPLs were different ---{ I knew how unscrupulous salespeople would play one speaker louder than another so it would sound "better"}--- but, Bernie allowed me 30 days to take the wires home and listen at my leisure before making my final decision! Well needless to say I bought the wires home. I went home and reattached my original wires and it all sounded good, very good in fact to me. Perhaps I was fooled in the audio salon by higher SPLs afterall? But when I hooked up the AudioQuest wires the difference was just like at Bernies the soundstage got wider, deeper and everything sounded just so much more clearer and realistic.
I repeated this experiment for friends who came over and believed like I used to believe i.e, all cables were, was a wire, surrounded by a dielectric which in turn was covered with a jacket. So how could that possibly make a difference? Guess what? Not one of them believed that when they left!
That Fredex was when I came to realize just how much of a difference wires could make and how little "Expectation Bias" plays when you listen with an open mind. In a way I'm like you now. I'm a reformed cable "objectivist" who now wants to show objectivists the errors of their ways. In fact since I've come to believe "know" cables make a difference it what we hear, there's only been 1 or maybe 2 people that I've not been able to train how to listen for difference in cables...
R-Carpenter said:
so if you have a stereo sound file, do you have gear that will tell you, without listening, and within a second or so, what instruments are playing, and where they are positioned in the soundstage ?
Andy Graddon said:
Thats about asking mics to have artificial intelligence Andy...Someone will write routines on an iMac at a point I am sure.
Andy Graddon said:
You are forgetting how all that sound stage magically gotten there(CD, LP or Tape) in the first place.
And yes I do believe it is possible to write an audio recognition routine for each instrument.
Now, how do you think artificial delay is applied in a home theater set up? We are not talking about intelligence, we are talking about the ability to pick up details and frequency.
So, what's you hearing range Andy?
fredex said:
Hello again Fredex, If the highs are glassy, the tweeter is ringing. Hard science rules!!!😀
With amazing experiences like that I guess you are right. My first flippant thought whilst reading your post was, "this Bernie must be in league with the devil." To be serious, that was your experience and I accept that it was exactly as you described it. Years ago I and friends spent months listening to different cables mainly homemade but nothing really expensive, nonetheless we could all hear huge differences. The weird thing is years later I listen to those same cables and the differences have all disappeared. I can think of three explanations. 1 my ears have deteriorated. 2 I was deluded back then, there were no differences. 3 My hearing at the time became sensitised by constantly focusing on tiny details so I was able to hear very small effects. The thought of going through all that again is not appealing, and anyway what is wrong with this objectivist trusting his ears? I hear no difference. 😉
No that's the telephone ringing....."hello...you don't sound too good, must be all this copper wiring, they really should be using silver."tc-60guy said:
fredex said:
Objectivist do NOT think a person is only hearing real phenomena. This is completely wrong. Objectivist are quite aware of the other factors, beside the moving air molecules, that determine what you perceive. It is exactly because of this reason that they want to exclude these additional factors for judging differences between cables or between equipment, hence DBT.
Jan Didden
R-Carpenter said:
a. not by any decision of the microphone !!!
b. go for it buddy, get back to me when you are done !!
until then, I'm not interested in any of your comments about microphones and their ability !!
oh and I want them to be able to "feel" the music emotionally too.
not just listen mechanically like some around here seem to !!!
R-Carpenter said:
There is a lot of work going on for instance in the AES for automatic recognition of audio signal content. The aim is to be able to classify music automatiocally based on content analysis. So the idea is actually being worked as we post 😉 .
Jan Didden
Whether or not there is a difference - let us presume, for the moment, that there may be some difference.Jakob2 said:
Ok, the important point, and, one that surely must already have been settled beyond debate, is: if there is a difference, that difference is minute in comparison to many other significant areas such as: the speaker, the room, the amplifier, the recorded material, the medium it's recorded on (cd/vinyl/tape), the microphone(s) and methods used to make the recording, the place where the music was recorded, etc, are ALL, I think, WITHOUT QUESTION MORE SIGNIFICANT than what cables you use to: A) connect components and B) connect your speakers to your amplifier(s).
So, here's my analogy: worrying about cables is like worrying about what kind of bottled spring water to give to your dog.
tc-60guy said:
Hello tc-60guy, no I haven't changed it again, the difference wasn't subtle, the bass sounded like the speakers need more stuffing and the instruments sounded "unfocussed", afterwards the bass sounded natural and I felt like I can stand up and touch the strings of the bass guitar and put my finger in Holly's mouth.😀
ravon said:
I always check that the cables go in, in the right direction, just for incase it make a difference. 😀
What happened was that I've swopped the positions of the pre-amp and CD player from the way it used to be and experienced a braindead moment when connecting them.
André
critofur said:
You are correct in most of this, the whole system and setup must be rather good before it get worthwhile to worry about better cables.
A bad system with good cables is just as much a waste of money as a good system with bad cables.
André
thetubeguy1954 said:
Thanks for the excellent story, tubeguy. I still like my story better! see post #1114 (shortcut: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1509618#post1509618)
I mean, wow, we all heard the difference! It is almost a pity that it wasn't due to sound waves.
Unfortunately, expectation bias, or whatever it is called, ruins sighted (uncontrolled) listening tests ... period.
"Expectation" is not under the sole control of our conscious mind. The unconscious mind has a say in it too. There are any number of explanations why, tubeguy, this test amounted to a setup for your conversion. Your anger about the topic over a period of time is an indication (not proof) that there may have been some conflict, unconscious/conscious. You might have held Bernie in high regard (he asked if you trusted him and you said yes -- that is actually a hypnotic suggestion and an instruction to your unconscious, although Bernie wouldn't have known). And the home trial was effectively a post hypnotic suggestion by a person to whom you had explicitly given authority.
The combined weight of Bernie's status as a trusted authority, plus all those experienced journos (many of whom I think are sincere), may have created a feeling that you are missing out on something here by remaining angrily defiant. Without knowing it you might have been on the brink of a "tonight's the night" experience.
I am not claiming any one of these possibilities is true about you, tubeguy, I am just explaining mechanisms by which expectation is not under conscious control.
As I said in post #1023, "Any uncontrolled test result can be completely ignored ... completely. And that is not an opinion, it's a fact. Ask any scientist who has done the hard yards how much credence they would put in *any* experimental finding that came from uncontrolled tests."
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