Ooops. Alan, my reply above was to your pre-edit comment about measured resistance.
Do let us know what you find listening blind.
cheers,
AJ
Do let us know what you find listening blind.
cheers,
AJ
tc-60guy said:
Even though you have not supplied any measurements to back up your civility claims I believe you are right.
tnargs said:
The thing is mate that I actually do believe that he hears that glassy effect for real, saying that he doesn't hear it is calling him a liar, no wonder subjectivists get mad.
Here's a true story: A while back I was comparing (with ears) my tube SE Amp with my Class D one, by repeatedly getting up and swapping amps, you know...nitpicking the sound as we do... At a certain part of the music I was thinking, gee this sounds a bit congested/distorted I bet that the class D would resolve that better. So I got up only to find that I was actually listening to the class D.
Question, do you believe me or did I imagine it?
Cheers
No, it's not. It's saying that there are other, more likely explanations that need to be eliminated before settling on an exotic answer.
I don't think anyone who claims to hear supernatural wire differences on this thread is deliberately and consciously saying things that he knows are not true. Being incorrect and lying are quite different things.
SY said:
Point taken, I should have said it was tantamount to calling him a liar or something. I am just offering a possible explanation for the fierceness often seen in this subjectivist/objectivist debate.
You say they claim to hear differences, I say they do hear differences.
fredex said:
Howdy, Quantifying civility is a bit like quantifying the differences in cables, vaporous, gossamer, will o the wisp!
Find a "golden ear", ask them about about cables, they will be able to set you straight, scientists are only trying to ruin our fun.😉tc-60guy said:
Hello again Fredex, I know folks who own cables which cost more than my entire system. For the most part their systems sound just dandy, although Iv'e heard some mismatched "Frankensystems" where money was thrown at the problem without regard to component or room matching. Whenever I get a chance to hear the good ones, I always wonder how the system would sound using the El cheapo cableing I use. Owners of such august systems are generally aghast at the suggestion! Might be a fun and eye opening experiment! Dr, Hsu of subwoofer fame once put on a demonstration at the Waldorf Astoria hotel useing a crappy 100 watt receiver, Rat shack speakers, and one of his subs to play back the hellicopter attack scene from Apocalypse Now. The whole shebang was wired together with those junkey wires they give away with mini systems or cheap speakers. You know the kind I mean. 24 guage, clear insulation you can strip off with your teeth! The interconnects were the kind they give away with DVD players. His demonstration not only blew away everyone in the room but had folks from other rooms running in to see what the heck was happening! And he wore a white lab coat to boot.......COOL!
tc-60guy said:
Suggestion: Get permission to swap his interconnects whilst he is seated, make sure he sees your interconnects and choose real el cheapos that look crap. Let him choose the music and level. Then pretend you are swapping cables but leave his connected. Play the music again. Let him do the talking.............
Warning; you may loose a friend.
fredex said:
They would string me up with MIT cables, pelt me with Shun Mook bubinga wood hockey pucks, and play the soundtrack from Casino Royal until my head imploded!
microphones give a wiggly line, we hear music.
I have yet to see a microphone actually "listen" !!
(or an objectivist, for that matter) 😀
There is a huge difference between recording a wiggly line, and our minds interpreting that wiggle as music.
Can a microphone (or a pair) split up that signal into different recognisable instruments, then locate those instrument in the soundstage?
Can a microphone tell a Gretsch from a Strat ?
Can a microphone interpret the subtle details of how an acoustic guitar is being played, or the nuances of well played piano concerto ?
or hear that slight breath of a singer or flautist ?
.
.
.
.
.
I guess if people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them..
me..... I'll listen to music !
.
.
.
.
.
as for if cables make a difference?
darned if I know ...... but I sure am not taking dubious ABX tests as the decider !!
nor theory and measurements, as I do not believe we know enough about human hearing to be sure the answer is "no" either.
its all "MAYBE" as far as any proof has shown so far.
darn these fence palings can get uncomfortable !!!! 😱
I have yet to see a microphone actually "listen" !!
(or an objectivist, for that matter) 😀
There is a huge difference between recording a wiggly line, and our minds interpreting that wiggle as music.
Can a microphone (or a pair) split up that signal into different recognisable instruments, then locate those instrument in the soundstage?
Can a microphone tell a Gretsch from a Strat ?
Can a microphone interpret the subtle details of how an acoustic guitar is being played, or the nuances of well played piano concerto ?
or hear that slight breath of a singer or flautist ?
.
.
.
.
.
I guess if people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them..
me..... I'll listen to music !
.
.
.
.
.
as for if cables make a difference?
darned if I know ...... but I sure am not taking dubious ABX tests as the decider !!
nor theory and measurements, as I do not believe we know enough about human hearing to be sure the answer is "no" either.
its all "MAYBE" as far as any proof has shown so far.
darn these fence palings can get uncomfortable !!!! 😱
Hearing and perception are unfortunately two different things.
Sometimes listeners got a different perception even if the soundfield presented is unaltered, and sometimes it is the other way round.
Sometimes listeners got a different perception even if the soundfield presented is unaltered, and sometimes it is the other way round.
tc-60guy said:
To me, good ("exotic") cables are only worthwhile on a good system, playing well recorded acoustical music. On the normal AV setups I won't bother too much.
André
The reason why i asked tnargs for any scientific study regarding audio cables was, that he stated the findings by valid experimental studies was that `cables can´t be heard´ .
While there are some attempts on dbts or sbts on this matter by forum members around the world, there is a surprising small number of more rigorous efforts on this subject. And these may rather have (although weak) evidence that differences might be audible.
1.) Audio Analysis VI: Testing Audio Cables
Philip Greenspun and Leigh Klotz
Computer Music Journal, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Spring, 1988), pp. 58-64
2.) Olaf Henning Sturm, Klangverbessernde Kabelverbindungen in der High-Fidelity- Eine experimentelle Hörstudie mit Musikbeispielen über verschiedene NF-Leitungen, Oktober 2001
(Hausarbeit im Rahmen der Magisterprüfung an der philosophischen Fakultät der Universität zu Köln
3.) Fritz Fey, Wohlklang durch Kabel?, Studio Magazin, Jahrg. 31, Nr.332, 03/2008
(Last one in a serious of several articles about cable influences, measurements and double blind tests)
I don´t have the first one right on hand, but from my memory this as well as the other two did raise some questions about the methodology used, but all three draw the conclusion that audible difference were detected although the measured differences were below the common accepted hearing thresholds.
While there are some attempts on dbts or sbts on this matter by forum members around the world, there is a surprising small number of more rigorous efforts on this subject. And these may rather have (although weak) evidence that differences might be audible.
1.) Audio Analysis VI: Testing Audio Cables
Philip Greenspun and Leigh Klotz
Computer Music Journal, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Spring, 1988), pp. 58-64
2.) Olaf Henning Sturm, Klangverbessernde Kabelverbindungen in der High-Fidelity- Eine experimentelle Hörstudie mit Musikbeispielen über verschiedene NF-Leitungen, Oktober 2001
(Hausarbeit im Rahmen der Magisterprüfung an der philosophischen Fakultät der Universität zu Köln
3.) Fritz Fey, Wohlklang durch Kabel?, Studio Magazin, Jahrg. 31, Nr.332, 03/2008
(Last one in a serious of several articles about cable influences, measurements and double blind tests)
I don´t have the first one right on hand, but from my memory this as well as the other two did raise some questions about the methodology used, but all three draw the conclusion that audible difference were detected although the measured differences were below the common accepted hearing thresholds.
Jakob2 said:
Exactly my point. And yet I fear that even this is not accepted by the forum in general. Not because it is arguable, not because it is illogical, but because accepting it as true leads to the essential requirement that listening judgments have to be unsighted before they can be credible. And THAT is simply not acceptable to many audiophiles, so they work backwards to discredit it (your assertions).
Andre Visser said:
Not true. Where did you get that idea? From the audiophile press? (That's the only place I have read it, time and time again, equally untrue every time).
Andy Graddon said:
Yes, a microphone can. If they couldn't then you would hear none of this in your recorded media playback system. Perhaps you don't? Bad cables in your bad system of normal AV setup?
Andy Graddon said:
Yes, much better to draw conclusions based on "just listening" when chasing sonic apparitions. Never let science interfere and hinder such endeavors.
Andre Visser said:
Can you give a good scientific explanation as to what good ("exotic") cables are? A good scientific explanation as to what parameters define a good system?
It would be most helpful for those with normal setups yearning for goodness, if you weren't so vague.
cheers,
AJ
tnargs said:
Perhaps we are talking about different things, I'm talking about the phase relation between the two channels, our ears use that also to detect the direction of a sound.
André
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