I've already mentioned that whenever there is an impedance mismatch, energy cannot be transferred 100%. Thus it will reflect back into the driving electronics, effecting the output signal, or the cable can be designed to dissipate this energy through impedance matching design. Measurement equipment are strictly designed according to specific impedance interface requirements. This is not the case in audio systems, and thus the issue of effects of using different connection cables.Brett said:
In it has already been shown to be irrelevant. Perhaps you have some measurements that would show this is not correct, rather than mere assertions that it is.
My background is RF and I do not think Z matching is very relevant at audio frequencies, for common length interconnects. Probably in the same league as skin effect.
My background is RF and I do not think Z matching is very relevant at audio frequencies, for common length interconnects. Probably in the same league as skin effect.
Without being prejudice about frequency spectrums, the low of conservation of energy would still be relevant, wouldn't it?Brett said:
Yes, I hear nothing, my tri-amped system reveals nothing, just like my impedance measurements, and now you know the secret to true musical enjoyment. I am the pinball wizard of audio- I listen by sense of smell.
A member since Jan 2004 and on your 8th post you chose to raise this thread from the dead. You one funny guy 69tahoe. 😉
Cables
Do you guys think psychology should be added to the curiculum for electronic engineering degrees?
Alot of the marketing propaganda is based on half truths, especially for speaker wire.
I've read a good few papers from engineers themselves (J L Hood and his ilk) stating that the most important is cross section surface area of conductor and legnth, for the sake of reistance mostly.
Capacitance and inductance play a negligable part in the legnths we need domestically.
Silver is only about 10% more conductive than copper, which makes a little difference but can the cost be justified? This only has an effect on conductivity and does not 'magically' improve the sound as some claims seem to illustrate.
The list goes on.
Has physics been corrupted by enterprise?
I've noticed all sorts of new compounds for use in cables, bandied about by ads in out favorite gadget/ hifi magazines. Seems like the periodic table has been scoured to find cool and new sounding product names.
There will be no end to this and I'm sure this debate will rage on for as long as there is a populace willing to part with its money.
Cheers all,
Carl
Do you guys think psychology should be added to the curiculum for electronic engineering degrees?
Alot of the marketing propaganda is based on half truths, especially for speaker wire.
I've read a good few papers from engineers themselves (J L Hood and his ilk) stating that the most important is cross section surface area of conductor and legnth, for the sake of reistance mostly.
Capacitance and inductance play a negligable part in the legnths we need domestically.
Silver is only about 10% more conductive than copper, which makes a little difference but can the cost be justified? This only has an effect on conductivity and does not 'magically' improve the sound as some claims seem to illustrate.
The list goes on.
Has physics been corrupted by enterprise?
I've noticed all sorts of new compounds for use in cables, bandied about by ads in out favorite gadget/ hifi magazines. Seems like the periodic table has been scoured to find cool and new sounding product names.
There will be no end to this and I'm sure this debate will rage on for as long as there is a populace willing to part with its money.
Cheers all,
Carl
Personally I hear an audible difference before I even try to find how differences can be see in the data. There are people that can't find any difference, and believe there is not difference. It's fine, I'm not going heels over head to change their decision. For people that has determined a difference, they probably already know what they are doing.Brett said:
I do learn lots of new vocabulary from these discussions.😀
Those that only listen, especially to cables, and don't measure, seldom have a clue.soongsc said:
That could be true for many cases. Maybe they got what they want and are satisfied, which is a blessing.Brett said:
If it were only true. Look at how often cables are traded on other fora. Once the 'new' wears off and they realise they sound the same, off they go for the next upgrade.soongsc said:
I did not say anything about adjusting the "tune" as that would imply changing the frequency, which is not possible.
Let me start with my view on cables, all cables are bad when it come to sound quality, the better ones are those that have the least influence on the sound. The best cable is no cable.
The diameter of conductors have an influence on the balance between bass and treble. You will lose less detail in sound from the better cables. It is quite possible to make a good system sound dull and liveless with "bad" cables.
Sounds like you misunderstood me, I said it is worthwhile to experiment with cables if you listen to acoustical instruments (music) because you have an idea of what you expect to hear. Your aim can at least be to get a piano, drum set, bass quitar etc. to sound like the real thing. I'm not implying that you can do it with cable alone but it plays an important part.
With synthesized music, I wouldn't even bother with cables.
I'm no "cable designer", although I have access to a wide range of cables. So I'm fortunate enough to listen and evaluate different cables without being influenced by their price (as is suggested by some). If somebody is really interested I can write about some of my findings.
By 'tune', I meant optimise the system performance to it's maximum, not change the FR. Why bother doing that with a cable when I can do it with EQ more easily.Andre Visser said:
And this is proven by what? What physical mechanism? Show me some proof rather than assertions.Andre Visser said:
Listening is proof of nothing, merely the preference on the day, depndent upon a huge number of conscious and unconscious variables.
Brett said:
Firstly, if you say listening proof nothing, I have no idea what you are doing on an audio forum, talking about hi-fi. Hi-fi is about listening and enjoyment of the music, I don't listen with test equipment although they are an important tool.
I've tested different diameter cables on different systems and found that larger dia conductors improve bass quality but you tend to lose detail in the higher frequencies while smaller dia conductors have the opposite effect. So somewhere in between you have to find the optimum compromise.
I believe the larger dia conductors have lower impedance that help with current flow but in the same time eddy currents start to affect the higher frequencies.
Unfortunately, test equipment is the only reliable way to draw conclusions. Then I was designing and voicing my last pair of speakers, one day they would sound painful, another day airy and revealing and on another day I would walk around thinking “what the hell am I doing, designing such a crappy no good speakers”. Your physical state of mind and body makes a major difference, not a piece of wire.
Not having enough sleep will affect your hearing.
The effect of personal perception will make a difference also. Did you ever relate the fact that Mark Levinson amplifiers tend to have “Dark” sound as the Kreel have more of an extended top to the fact that ML cases are usually black anodized aluminum and Kreel is usually brushed aluminum of a light color.
Do you think that if I make you 2 pairs of RCA in 99.999 silver and OFC, the hide them in Tech Flex jacket, You'd know the difference? I am actually wheeling to bet $ that you will not.
There's plenty of this facts.
I think we need to concentrate on that's important in achieving a good sound. If you loaded with cash and want to brag about this interconnect and that speaker cable, by all means, go ahead. But then you should also keep in mind that it's only bragging and if the knowledgeable person comes alone, just shush it.
Spend your money on important things. Get the best drivers you can and invest time in a research and design. If you building your own boxes, get a nice router bit or better router. There are plenty of other places to spend money and actually affect the outcome then cables.
Not having enough sleep will affect your hearing.
The effect of personal perception will make a difference also. Did you ever relate the fact that Mark Levinson amplifiers tend to have “Dark” sound as the Kreel have more of an extended top to the fact that ML cases are usually black anodized aluminum and Kreel is usually brushed aluminum of a light color.
Do you think that if I make you 2 pairs of RCA in 99.999 silver and OFC, the hide them in Tech Flex jacket, You'd know the difference? I am actually wheeling to bet $ that you will not.
There's plenty of this facts.
I think we need to concentrate on that's important in achieving a good sound. If you loaded with cash and want to brag about this interconnect and that speaker cable, by all means, go ahead. But then you should also keep in mind that it's only bragging and if the knowledgeable person comes alone, just shush it.
Spend your money on important things. Get the best drivers you can and invest time in a research and design. If you building your own boxes, get a nice router bit or better router. There are plenty of other places to spend money and actually affect the outcome then cables.
I can say for sure that the cables I have do not sound the same. The only reason I have not continued investigation is that I seem more potential in speaker improvements.Brett said:
I hang around here for a lot of reasons.Andre Visser said:
Listening is nothing.
Notice the words "I believe", they are key.Andre Visser said:
The first part about larger diameter having lower R is true. The second part about eddy currents and HF, got a credible source?
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