AJ I can provide Near Field SPL of the Usher 8945P with crappy cable and a 99.99 silver one. I don't see any point because they are absolutely identical just as F1,2,3,4.
Andy, Frequency sweeps and MLS can't be taken at the listening position because the data will contain reflections from boundaries unless you have an Anechoic Chamber. I don't.
I can't take measurements of Magneplanar 3.5 because it's at home I don't feel like dragging it to the shop but I can dig up sweeps on other speakers. What exactly are you looking to see there?
Andy, Frequency sweeps and MLS can't be taken at the listening position because the data will contain reflections from boundaries unless you have an Anechoic Chamber. I don't.
I can't take measurements of Magneplanar 3.5 because it's at home I don't feel like dragging it to the shop but I can dig up sweeps on other speakers. What exactly are you looking to see there?
Here's what ya do in very abbreviated form- forgive me if I sound like a broken record as I've said this before- hook up both channels with the same type of cable. Make a high gain differential measurement from one channel to the other with a mono signal (music, tones, whatever you like) and confirm/adjust gains for no signal. Do this at the speaker terminals. Now, swap out one side with silver wire, coat-hanger, magic dust wire or whatever. Check the differential voltage again, adjusting gains if necessary. If the error signal remains negligible, the change in wire had no effect. End of story. Identical signals must sound identical. If you measure a difference that's within some reasonable distance of the signal level, you pick, be it -50dB or -90dB, then we at least have something to talk about and experiment with. I like this test because it can be done with real musical signals and because you don't have to put some fancy name on what you see. Either there's a significant error signal, or there isn't. On the down side, getting a good null at -70dB isn't easy, and will highlight response and phase differences between your channels.
Conrad Hoffman said:
I agree. I have heard a lot of arguments against DBTs but none that seek to discredit the null test. Are there any?
like the argument CH used here:
to justify the assertion because there is a difference at -70db, it is highly likely this will have an audible effect.
audio-kraut, if you don't want real time data you could use the same channel and null recordings. This would give a deeper null. I imagine you could reach such a deep null that everyone would agree that it was inaudible... or am I just dreaming?
I referred to the values cited by jacob from a study that claims .1db stereo signal differences can be detected.
As anecdotal evidence, and therefore not scientifically valid, let me state that with a pure sine anywhere between 1kHz and about 10kHz I can just detect signal differnces of 1dB in my setup at the listening spot.
I presume that with a complex musical signal - also based on some not stringent testing - I might not be able to achieve the same accuracy.
This is why I referred to a non optimal listening room with reflections, nodes etc. as the last place to achieve any results close to jacobs cited values as any of those would in my estimation obscure any "fine grainyness" needed for usefull test results.
Yes, as any dyed in the wool audiphile will tell you: No measurement EVER wil satisfy their need to claim to be able to hear things not supported by any measurements.
This is my experience after browsing and participating in several forums for the last seven years.
For this sort of measurement Bill Waslo´s diffmaker software is a handy tool. You may find it here:
http://www.libinst.com/Audio DiffMaker.htm
Of course a _good_ a/d-conversion is needed and yes it is quite rare to not measure a difference between two different pieces of audio gear.
What in the end brings up again the question if these differences are audible. 🙂
http://www.libinst.com/Audio DiffMaker.htm
Of course a _good_ a/d-conversion is needed and yes it is quite rare to not measure a difference between two different pieces of audio gear.
What in the end brings up again the question if these differences are audible. 🙂
R-Carpenter said:
R-Carpenter, the differences I hear with cables will never be measured by normal freq sweeps and SPL.
I've tried to explain my view before, the level of differences that we hear will also depend on the way that each person listen to music. As some suggest, forget about everything and enjoy the music, they will probably never hear a difference. I'm more interested in the sound quality, detail and soundstage (the feeling of being there) than the music itself.
To me, music without small detail and soundstage is boring, I will rather go and do something else in silence, 😀 so perhaps this can describe why some hear "big" differences and other nothing.
I would suggest that if anybody is serious about finding measurable differences, we must figure out how to measure the same way the brain "hear". Phase accuracy between channels, the ability to detect low level sounds in the presence of loud ones etc. Our ears work the same as our eyes, we can create a 3D picture of the sounds around us. If we want to fool the brain with stereo, then we have to recreate all the cues convincingly or else it will be only sounds.
André
audio-kraut said:
Try and listen to a mono signal (say 3kHz) on a good stereo setup, adjust the balance to hear the image at centre position, now change the balance to move the image position and see how little change is needed. You can do the same with phase, then decide how sensitive our hearing can be.
audio-kraut said:
The problem with "any measurements", at this stage we measure the wrong things. I also don't believe in magic but if the way measurements are taken fall short, it doesn't mean that something doesn't exist.
André
Apologize my curiosity but why will that never be measured?Andre Visser said:
I'm sorry, but this does not explain what you claimed before.
Get serious. A measurable difference can simply be measured.
Things get different if someone wants to use measurements to explain audiophiles why they experience differences when they listen to different cables.
Andre Visser said:
Hellouw André!
I would like to agree with you and also add the following: I personally think that us humans have not yet discovered all the measurable vectors/parameters there is to measure relative to the next.
Hi can clearly hear the difference between different cables - and a person who wants to differ is a fool. How can one expect that two different designs will sound the same?
Take this analogy i.e.: A Steinway Grand Piano and a Yamaha Grand Piano is designed more-or-less the same and they both sound like a piano BUT they sound different from each other ever so subtle. Why? Different materials and design principals. The difference in sound is called TIMBRE. Also, if you can’t differentiate between different makes of instruments then you can’t be serious about high-fidelity audio reproduction!
Dewald Visser
Andre Visser said:
Oh yeah. I once saw this audiophile guy using a sound level meter to measure differences between cables. Since that moment this guy strongly believes that those differences cannot be measured.
Re: Re: Re: Electronics Vs The Human Ear --- Which Is More Sensitive?
Crossover becomes much more objectionable at low volume and at high frequencies. Screaming Piezo horns are hardly going to fit that critical listening senario.
the audience were being bombarded with loud "music" all the time. I suspect here was so much distortion they could not hear the crossover part of it.nigelwright7557 said:
Crossover becomes much more objectionable at low volume and at high frequencies. Screaming Piezo horns are hardly going to fit that critical listening senario.
Hi Conrad,Conrad Hoffman said:
could you start a new thread or send me an Email with a detailed "how to" for this test procedure? Particularly achieving deep null.
GlidingDutchman said:
Hi Dewald
Yes, we must keep in mind hearing between people obviously differ, just as sound between different instruments and hi-fi equipment differ.
André
Gmfff... people at lè disco's generally give a rats *** about sound quality. Their motto: "If its loud its good!"
No matter if the bass is flabby and just a wrwrwrwrwrwrwrwrwbzbzbzbzbzbzbz or the treble is so sharp it can cut skin... they dance and drink all night!
Alcohol doesnt improve one's hearing!
MOSFET Disco Amplifier? Whats that anyway? My audiophile amplifier uses MOSFETs... ??
D
Andre Visser said:
Andre, I think this is one of thè most important statements.
Late Peter Walker (of QUAD) stated how peoples hearing differ due to the shape of their ears pinnas'.
D
It's in the detail, low level, ambience whatever 😀
Then what did I claim?
Yes, if you measure for the right things with the right instruments.
André
- Status
- Not open for further replies.