The thing is this, not all DBTs work out null. So far all the cable ones have. That certainly makes a big statement to the order of magnitude of the difference. I'd actually like to see a cable DBT done with headphones or in an anechoic chamber. That would eliminate the distraction of the room anyway, but would make it invalid for in room listening. If positive though it show that cables audibly change the sound at least under certain conditions.
Here's a good list of some DBTs far all to see so people know they aren't all null:
ABX Double Blind Comparator Data
Dan
Here's a good list of some DBTs far all to see so people know they aren't all null:
ABX Double Blind Comparator Data
Dan
Maybe someone changed the Wiki in the last couple hours b/c it says nothing like that now. Hmmmm.........
Dan
This site does not list all the other equipment used in the comparisons.
The problem is that nobody can get the same equipment and conduct measurements to see if any other factors might influence the results or not.
anechoic chamber
headphones🙄
Equipment hasn't been shown to be very important either:
Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments
What's the issue with headphones?
Dan
Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments
What's the issue with headphones?
Dan
People will always be on the band wagon with cables. For some reason I think people tend to take cables as a given when assuming there can be no difference and that makes for heated discussions like this one. I do find it strange that threads like this one usually have some people who have not been in a situation to be able to hear a difference but they seem to feel comfortable preaching to other people they hardly know about how they spend money. They assume cable believers all think more money equals better sound, they all assume any differences should be evident under any circumstances, and they assume anyone who does not wish to participate in blind testing is hiding something. These things simply are not true for everyone and assuming they are is not very smart in my opinion. I don't necessarily believe expensive equals better but that shielding and solid core copper are the way to go. I believe 10 to 20 percent of your system budget is fine for cables but I don't see any problem with using BJC with high end stuff either. I believe silver sounds different and that some may prefer the way it sounds. I don't really believe in DBT'ing because deciding what the differences are is not an easy thing and procedures for testing are opposite of what I have found to work best for me when it comes to discovering what is different. I also am not interested in DBT'ing as I believe it to be a waste of my time and "it just doesn't seem interesting to me". Do I believe I can pass a DBT? I don't have a clue. The only experience I had like that was 2 sets of 650's, one with an SAA cable and one with a Senn cable, both plugged into the same amp and it was easy for me to discern the two cables apart. Even if it had not been so easy though I would still like to use what is best when I am trancing and surfing the web. As for people misleading other people, it works both ways. Obviously some people are into the cable thing and others are not. Why would anyone feel comfortable telling another person on an Internet forum what preference should be?
Thats why I say "Use your ears". 🙄
I suppose if you keep the test going long enough it will be a fifty fifty result, even with guessing
How many right or wrong "guesses" do you demand to consider the test conclusive ?
How many right or wrong "guesses" do you demand to consider the test conclusive ?
With a speaker that decays slowly, it's going to be hard to hear differences in anything before them.
The issue with headphones is that what kind of modes between the ear canal is generally not shown. Especially the plug in types.
(ps, breaking up long single paragraphs help in reading)
Possibly. You will find many tho that say 'spend your money on what you want, completely fine'.
Always remember to flip things around. Example. I do find it strange that many cable believers have not been in a situation to genuinely determine if the cable differences they hear are real or influenced by other factors, yet feel comfortable proclaiming cable difference none the less.
Not at all. It could be true for some. We don't assume people automatically think more expensive equal better. It could be. Or it could be something else.
We do believe that we ALL are influenced by factors know and unknown, so to truly determine something we should do all we can to minimise their influence.
I think you assume a lot that is not necessarily true.
Did you know which was which?
Yep. Agree, See, we do agree after all.
Did you ask yourself the simple question I posed above?? If you are using your ears, why do you also need you eyes??
You did say it was easy to discern differences above did you not? (I presume you meant audible differences??) If so, then it is easy for you to do it without knowledge of which is which correct?
Possibly. You will find many tho that say 'spend your money on what you want, completely fine'.
Always remember to flip things around. Example. I do find it strange that many cable believers have not been in a situation to genuinely determine if the cable differences they hear are real or influenced by other factors, yet feel comfortable proclaiming cable difference none the less.
Not at all. It could be true for some. We don't assume people automatically think more expensive equal better. It could be. Or it could be something else.
We do believe that we ALL are influenced by factors know and unknown, so to truly determine something we should do all we can to minimise their influence.
I think you assume a lot that is not necessarily true.
Did you know which was which?
Yep. Agree, See, we do agree after all.
Did you ask yourself the simple question I posed above?? If you are using your ears, why do you also need you eyes??
You did say it was easy to discern differences above did you not? (I presume you meant audible differences??) If so, then it is easy for you to do it without knowledge of which is which correct?
To perform a test I suppose you would need test cables that actually makes a difference 
So, the first session would be choosing which cables to use for testing
Could be interesting to try and test whether various lengths makes a detectable difference
So, the first session would be choosing which cables to use for testing
Could be interesting to try and test whether various lengths makes a detectable difference
I think we should have a big test done at one of the many DIY events around the US every year or just create a new listening/testing event. Where meaurements and controlled listening is done for 2 days. A little adminsion fee would help with costs of the setups.
Also we should offer up a raffle where each of us put $50 into the pot, with the total $$$ we buy some expensive cables and compare them against the low cost Monoprice choices. After the tests we can sell the cables and those dollars goes to a charity.
25 or 50 people would generate a decent amount of money to get atleast one or two sets of exotic cables. Obviously we would get the most expensive cables unless one of the believers wanted to bring theirs for the weekend.
Also we should offer up a raffle where each of us put $50 into the pot, with the total $$$ we buy some expensive cables and compare them against the low cost Monoprice choices. After the tests we can sell the cables and those dollars goes to a charity.
25 or 50 people would generate a decent amount of money to get atleast one or two sets of exotic cables. Obviously we would get the most expensive cables unless one of the believers wanted to bring theirs for the weekend.
Unlikely that the upcoming test will change anything, however, it is provocative to say that we pretty good idea (sub text those who hear differences are imagining it)
I think the bias expectation has been pointed out at least 2000 time in this thread 🙂 and gets tiring. People are aware of the issue, the thing is, their experience is telling them it is not this! Everyone (with any humility) will admit that they have fallen for expectation, where they thought they heard a difference only to realise nothing had changed. However people report do repeated sighted tests with over long periods of time to get the same result. There is a possibility that there is something there.
I cannot hear cable differences under DBT coditions, but I have a friend who claims he can. He has done a lot of blind testing over many years for "Which" (80's) and "Choice" magazines. He says that it takes a long time to learn how to listen under true blind conditions, and even then under difficult test conditions (stress, or with negative people) he says he goes deaf.
That would be interesting, as I think he will get a shock when he tries to do the DBTs!
Dan,
In the many many sighted tests I have done on cables, the difference I have heard have been extremely subtle - similar to about 0.1db EQ changes, or plugging in a piece of gear in the chain without it doing anything (Yep THAT SUBTLE).
I repeat that I have been unable to detect these difference in DBTs.
However, even knowing this, I still hear the difference either sighted or single blind.
Cheers
David
Funny. So when the music changes with a sighted test, you do NOT lose track of which is which, because you can SEE which is playing at any one time? I think you have just, once more, proven that you cannot make out the difference based on sound alone.
QED.
jd
Hi olblueyez,
I think it is understandable for many people to expect that the world should match the theory. I am involved with a large audio club in Melbourne, and I would say that the 130 or so members pretty well represent all the views expressed in this thread 🙂. Many of them hear differences very easily, most aren't sure, whilst others (all listening to the same thing) hear none. Now you could argue that expectation bias plays it's hand here either one way or the other. The most important thing is to keep a level of respect for each other (and a sense of humour) because you can be sure that no one is going to change their mind based on what is said in this thread🙂
Cheers
David
Yes. It contradicts all known laws of physics, THEREFOR it needs strong evidence to get a chance of being accepted. But nobody said it is impossible. SY repeatedly made the point that he would accept that a difference is audible IF there was evidence. Why doesn't anybody just get on with it and provide that evidence and bring peace to us all?
jd
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but exotic expencive cables doesnt sound like "in the spirit of DIY" 😱
Maybe better think about items/materials for DIY cables 😉
Do we only hear a change when being told and made aware about it ?
Contradicting, yes
But Im sure you can think of a number of occations where you dont notice a change, but only notice the change when being told about it
The change is real, but not noticed because of a number of psycological issues
But the fact that you may only notice a change when being told about it doesnt automatically mean that you cannot detect such change
Its actually quite common I would say, and part of our every day life
Its like fault finding in electronics
You only notice the failure when you know what to look fore
Once being made aware of a problem that wasnt noticed before, will thereafter be noticed every time looking... or listening
Or we may choose the opposite....to go "blind" instead
common mind tricks
Contradicting, yes
But Im sure you can think of a number of occations where you dont notice a change, but only notice the change when being told about it
The change is real, but not noticed because of a number of psycological issues
But the fact that you may only notice a change when being told about it doesnt automatically mean that you cannot detect such change
Its actually quite common I would say, and part of our every day life
Its like fault finding in electronics
You only notice the failure when you know what to look fore
Once being made aware of a problem that wasnt noticed before, will thereafter be noticed every time looking... or listening
Or we may choose the opposite....to go "blind" instead
common mind tricks
I completely get that, was not so much pointing it out 'yet again' rather trying to make the point that acknowledging bias (of any sort, rather than the specific 'expectation' bias) is NOT the same as calling someone deluded (was that the word you used?? forgive me if it's wrong)
'people can hear things due to bias' does not mean they are 'deluded'. tho they can be too hahaha😀
Hmm, tinitus has made an interesting point about this one...dunno tinitus, I could very well imagine it can happen! Off the top of my head someone might not be able to pick a high bit compression, but can after 'education', seems to fit your scenario??
I once added a copper film shield over Alpha core interconnects and grounded it at the receiving end, it sounded like honk in a horn.
but exotic expencive cables doesnt sound like "in the spirit of DIY" 😱
Maybe better think about items/materials for DIY cables 😉
And who will do the sacrifice to touch them?😀
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