It might be similiar as the underlying mechanism seems to be in both cases a bias mechanism.
Several examples could be found, it is mentioned in an article Tom Nousaine wrote for the boston audio society:
Boston Audio Society - Wishful Thinking article
A second example:
Stereophile: Blind Listening
(well worth to read the letters commenting on this test too, especially the analysis of Burstein is still worth a read)
Wishes
Maybe you are brothers in bias? 🙂 (just kidding)
At least it should make you happy to see some _positive_ contributions made by me?!
Wishes
You might want to reread it, but afair my objection was "leaving the room, listening for the unchanged system 4 or 5 times in a row and to do at least 12 trials" so it doesn´t make sense to pick just one part to respond to.
Well, i wouldn´t say that rapid switching is a bad thing itself, but it depends on the signal to listen to. If the listener is trying to detect a level difference, rapid switching might be useful, but in our case the claim was establishing a preference while listening to music.
And wrt to practical relevance it is better to avoid rapid switching.
A second objection is that the possibility of rapid switching could lead to do so and might bring the listener more in a state of "technical hearing" what could lower his awareness to complex differences.
Wishes
Not only do cables not make a difference in sound quality, Maple, Oak, Concrete, Brick, Marble, Steel, or Lead blocks under an amplifier make no difference.
Holman doesn't believe in differences, anymore. I'm pretty sure that Spiegel's ABX test-box did him in. (It would have done me in, too, if I had not further investigated it) That's why he now does sound effects and measurement standards, etc. Yes, I'm pretty sure we pay him a royalty too for THX. Nice guy though, in person, just like Bob Cordell. Must be upbringing.
Further word: Last time I was there, Ray Dolby was using Holman's original hi fi preamp in his reference playback system. Who needs anything more?
Further word: Last time I was there, Ray Dolby was using Holman's original hi fi preamp in his reference playback system. Who needs anything more?
Of course, you´re right 5 times in a row is quite unlikely, but 3 or 4 times is not.
The interesting part of the problem is, that it not only emerges if 3/4/5 times in a row the same is presented but nearly in every possible combination exists.
See for example the results of the stereophile dbt on amplifiers; while the overall error rate is lower compared to other events (~69%) the number is still high as usual.
Otoh i know that it is possible to get rid of this problem if the participant(s) does train enough.
The same seems to happen for the ABX protocol; i don´t like it myself and i know from first hand experience that it does confuse listeners, but as stated before, according for example to Bruno Putzeys or Paul Frindle they were able to reach very impressive results with it.
So again, it seems to depend on the training efforts.
And of course on a positive control to see if the participant is really ready for the test.
Maybe we could work out some additional examples to send TG for training purposes, that could serve as positive controls afterwards as well.
Wishes
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If you do a test with 3 or 4 cables it would be easier to rule out chance, as well as false positives. As you know we can hear the exact same sound and respond differently to it. So, if getting the same cable many times in a row one might imagine they hear a difference that doesn't exist. But, I think TG should definitely do the coin flip when practicing, so he is prepared.
Multiple stimuli like that are a recipe for confusion. Simplicity rules. But yes, everyone has agreed again and again that TG ought to practice with randomized choices.
Bob and Tom are both genteel folks. John, I think we both had a bit of hardscrabble in our childhood.
EDIT - Can't spell
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I think both of you guys are gentiles, too. I know a rabbi who can fix that. It will only hurt for a few seconds...
Holy crappolly, 1,019 pages on whether speaker wire makes a difference or not?
Really?
I laughed (in an enjoyable way) at the comment that said, this is the most civilized discussion of this subject the person had ever encountered, and heated as it is, he is probably right. This is one of those polarizing hot button issues like politics and religion. It is a discussion with no solution, or no resolution.
I will repeat my original comment, the subject isn't whether good speaker wire is better than bad, because I think we can all agree it is. The real question is whether great speaker wire is better than good, and that remains unproven.
The next question, if we assume great is better than good, is whether the gain is worth the cost? I'm not sure it is.
That said, speaker wire and interconnects should be in proportion to your equipment. If you have $500 into a basic stereo, you are a fool if you put $500, or even $100, into wire and interconnects. Better to simply buy a $1,000 stereo instead.
However, if you have $5,000 (or $50,000) into a stereo, go for the good stuff, you can afford it.
While all this theoretical discussion is good and very interesting, it is not very practical.
In another forum (AVForums.com) a person posted asking if a given speaker wire was good or not. It was a fairly standard AWG 16ga wire. But, as it happened, he had full specs on it; resistance, capacitance, and inductance per meter. So, I ran some calculations to determine at what frequencies these parameters would start to effect the sound. My conclusion was that you didn't even start to have an electrical effect until the frequency went above 18khz (roughly), and in most cases, the effects didn't come into play until about 40khz. Remember this is pretty much bog standard 16ga speaker wire.
So, does great speaker wire have an effect? Certainly, but the effect is all well above 20khz.
Many people say how much the bass is improved with high quality wire, but why would it be? It seems that all the parameters occur, and have their effect, not in the bass range, but in the high treble range. Bass should flow easily even in the cheapest wire, assuming it is of reasonable size.
I see that in the really premium cable the various design aspect do effect the things they claim to effect, but in a range well outside that of normal hearing.
If you have a fantastic stereo, or home cinema, system, where every detail is revealed, then slight variations could occur with premium wire. However, I suspect it is extremely subtle, and until you have eliminated every other variable that could effect the sound, it is unlikely that the difference in wire would not be overwhelmed by other colorations.
So, despite the extremely long and interesting discussion, in practice, your wallet is the best guide for your speaker wire and interconnects. If you have a fortune in your system, then equally spend a fortune on your wire. However, if you have a basic affordable stereo, it makes little sense, to spend a fortune on wire. Far better to spend that second fortune on a better stereo.
I have to believe new speakers or a new amp are going to overwhelm any difference that the wire and cable might make. So, until your equipment has risen to a extremely high level of sophistication and clarity, equally sophisticated and expensive wire should make very little difference.
Notice, I didn't say 'no difference' only a very small difference that in most stereos is overwhelmed by other coloration factors.
While a theoretical discussion is certainly enjoyable and worthwhile, in the real world, there is a simple and obvious practical element that should dictate our buying decisions.
And, that is, keep your interconnects in proportion to the rest of your equipment. A small fortune in premium wire could better be spent on buying better stereo equipment, which is certainly going to make a bigger difference than the subtleties of wire.
So, in my highly unscientific and unproven opinion, good is definitely better than bad, but great is only slightly better than good and it is extremely expensive to gain that very slight improvement.
Still, 1019 pages on how much better great is than good, is a lot of opinion expressed.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Really?
I laughed (in an enjoyable way) at the comment that said, this is the most civilized discussion of this subject the person had ever encountered, and heated as it is, he is probably right. This is one of those polarizing hot button issues like politics and religion. It is a discussion with no solution, or no resolution.
I will repeat my original comment, the subject isn't whether good speaker wire is better than bad, because I think we can all agree it is. The real question is whether great speaker wire is better than good, and that remains unproven.
The next question, if we assume great is better than good, is whether the gain is worth the cost? I'm not sure it is.
That said, speaker wire and interconnects should be in proportion to your equipment. If you have $500 into a basic stereo, you are a fool if you put $500, or even $100, into wire and interconnects. Better to simply buy a $1,000 stereo instead.
However, if you have $5,000 (or $50,000) into a stereo, go for the good stuff, you can afford it.
While all this theoretical discussion is good and very interesting, it is not very practical.
In another forum (AVForums.com) a person posted asking if a given speaker wire was good or not. It was a fairly standard AWG 16ga wire. But, as it happened, he had full specs on it; resistance, capacitance, and inductance per meter. So, I ran some calculations to determine at what frequencies these parameters would start to effect the sound. My conclusion was that you didn't even start to have an electrical effect until the frequency went above 18khz (roughly), and in most cases, the effects didn't come into play until about 40khz. Remember this is pretty much bog standard 16ga speaker wire.
So, does great speaker wire have an effect? Certainly, but the effect is all well above 20khz.
Many people say how much the bass is improved with high quality wire, but why would it be? It seems that all the parameters occur, and have their effect, not in the bass range, but in the high treble range. Bass should flow easily even in the cheapest wire, assuming it is of reasonable size.
I see that in the really premium cable the various design aspect do effect the things they claim to effect, but in a range well outside that of normal hearing.
If you have a fantastic stereo, or home cinema, system, where every detail is revealed, then slight variations could occur with premium wire. However, I suspect it is extremely subtle, and until you have eliminated every other variable that could effect the sound, it is unlikely that the difference in wire would not be overwhelmed by other colorations.
So, despite the extremely long and interesting discussion, in practice, your wallet is the best guide for your speaker wire and interconnects. If you have a fortune in your system, then equally spend a fortune on your wire. However, if you have a basic affordable stereo, it makes little sense, to spend a fortune on wire. Far better to spend that second fortune on a better stereo.
I have to believe new speakers or a new amp are going to overwhelm any difference that the wire and cable might make. So, until your equipment has risen to a extremely high level of sophistication and clarity, equally sophisticated and expensive wire should make very little difference.
Notice, I didn't say 'no difference' only a very small difference that in most stereos is overwhelmed by other coloration factors.
While a theoretical discussion is certainly enjoyable and worthwhile, in the real world, there is a simple and obvious practical element that should dictate our buying decisions.
And, that is, keep your interconnects in proportion to the rest of your equipment. A small fortune in premium wire could better be spent on buying better stereo equipment, which is certainly going to make a bigger difference than the subtleties of wire.
So, in my highly unscientific and unproven opinion, good is definitely better than bad, but great is only slightly better than good and it is extremely expensive to gain that very slight improvement.
Still, 1019 pages on how much better great is than good, is a lot of opinion expressed.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
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And therein lies the problem. This is far from true. I posted sims and measurements - not napkin calcs - showing the consequences of believing cables 'make no difference' on the recommendations that result. Simplistic models don't work and with all the free tools available are hard to justify. I see DIYers sweating smaller FR discrepancies in crossovers than result from some of these speaker cable recommendations. I highly recommend breaking out a meter and confirming your presuppositions, for all the rabid defense of scientific process something oddly and entirely lacking in this thread.
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