Get Terry to post some pics of his - you'll never be concerned yours are underpriced again.
That said, he has one of the two best systems I have ever heard including more than a few over the years that would have 20x the $ investment in them, no exaggeration.
You must be new to the forums or at least this thread if you believe what you just posted my friend 😀
You are right terry j, level matching is important, especially in the way objectivists 😀 do the testing. It is easy to think the slightly louder one are better BUT it depends a lot on WHAT you listen for and that's perhaps the part that objectivists doesn't understand or want to understand. I've said many times, a good system sounds good at almost any volume, a bad system only at one volume. 😉
I'm hurt, I've never said that.
value
..then there's that issue of "profit margin", i.e., that part of the product pricing over and above recoupment of the costs associated with raw materials, overhead for intellectual property, physical plant, etc. Typical speaker drivers produced en masse (as almost all are) often cost no more than tens of dollars per device to produce, if that much. Construction materials, be they wood, steel chasis, wires (heaven forbid), active devices, etc. are less than that, so, given that flat screen 50" teevees are sold at less than $1000.00, where's the justification price-wise for selling wires for hundreds or thousands of dollars per meter, whether they "improve the sound or not"? If it's "what the market will bear", then I think you've missed the entire point of this thread.
John L.
..then there's that issue of "profit margin", i.e., that part of the product pricing over and above recoupment of the costs associated with raw materials, overhead for intellectual property, physical plant, etc. Typical speaker drivers produced en masse (as almost all are) often cost no more than tens of dollars per device to produce, if that much. Construction materials, be they wood, steel chasis, wires (heaven forbid), active devices, etc. are less than that, so, given that flat screen 50" teevees are sold at less than $1000.00, where's the justification price-wise for selling wires for hundreds or thousands of dollars per meter, whether they "improve the sound or not"? If it's "what the market will bear", then I think you've missed the entire point of this thread.
John L.
What a discussion! I have always been on the fence about cables. I don't believe that there should be any audible differences between well designed cables. I have always wondered if some of the rather extreme differences noted by some really had to do with impedance matching issues between different equipment. I think its rather amazing that there are no standards for this in audio. My thoughts are that some cables, because of differences in construction are either more capacitive of inductive and these differences coupled with impedance mismatches between components could be what we are really hearing.
I also have never understood the extreme arguments of Subjectivist vs
Objectivist. It should be obvious that either extreme won't work. You need both measurements and listening tests to evaluate components.
Rob🙂
I also have never understood the extreme arguments of Subjectivist vs
Objectivist. It should be obvious that either extreme won't work. You need both measurements and listening tests to evaluate components.
Rob🙂
funny, and here I was thinking you were late to this thread???😕😕
Anyways, so to clear it up, you ARE willing to partake in a well conducted test?
Fantastic!! what do you have in mind?
Don't be hurt, surely you recognised I was 'avin a larf?
I think you are unnecessarily complicating things. I am willing to be corrected, but a workable statement IS 'level differences will NOT be necessarily described as level differences.'
So, what in the hell does that have to do with 'any volume, only at one volume'?? Surely not you too are that ignorant of the basic principles under discussion here???😕😕
It has taken 800 pages to find this level of ignorance of the topic under discussion???😕😕😕
Supppose you were tto begin selling an amplifier design of yours through dealers worldwide.The amp has a cost to you,say $1000,all included.How much would you sell it to your dealers,and how much would you advice them to sell it to their customers?Provided of course that you would had already solved looks anf finish issues.A diyer has only the parts costs and his time,that is spent anyway for his amp.A manufacturer?
If you service my amp will you charge me only the parts cost?
In a speaker,you talk about wood.Is it wood that you will sell your customer or dealer?Not a well made and finished cabinet?You may be a great diy'er but with ideas like these,you couldn't survive as a manufacturer more that 15 days.Cables are not different.Does a steak cost 10 times more than a take away burger?
I'm sure you know what a small speaker manufacturing plant costs,right?
Just to avoid any missunderstandings,yes I agree with you that cables that cost as much as my car or amplifiers/speakers that cost as much as my house,cannot have an excuse🙂Sorry,but we have to be careful with you guys.We say we hear cable differences and you immidiately conclude that we have spent thousands of $$$ on them.Well,we haven't.It is that experience we were talking about that helps us take wiser decisions.🙄
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Andre,
Let's try some logic for a change:
If I assume that:
1 - You indeed fully understand the theory about the cables mentioned before;
2 - You also fully understand the psycho-acoustic issues that abundantly proof that our hear-brain system is probably the least reliable sensory instrument around;
3 - When doing your listening test with cables, you hear/perceive differences;
4 - As a result, you conclude there is a conflict between the above points.
My question would be:
1 - Are you interested at all to solve the conflict?
2 - If so, where would you start to look for resolution of the conflict?
jd
I don't understand the confusion, read my answer again, I agreed with you, if only in part.
If you listen to aspects like stage focus then absolute volume isn't that important. A system with more defined and detailed sound, which normally also allow for a more focussed soundstage, will sound better irrespective of volume differences (within reason of course) IF thats what you listen for.
I will tell you the difference between silver and copper cable, of similar construction, at quite different volume levels.
If it cost you $1000 to build an amp, you probably don't have a viable business model... so you're right... you should go out of business in about 15 days😀
John L.
So,how much in your opinion a "viable business model"should cost?Market is full of models at all prices and very rarely we see a manufacturer closing down,and those who have,surely were in business for decades not minutes.Point was that your "viable business model"as a manufacturer,would cost me as the consumer,at least 4 times your dealer price,maybe 8-10 times your actual cost price?
Retail at 5x BOM is usual for a medium volume product, but it needs to be larger for limited quantity items. Perhaps that's why, after years of being an industry standard, Audio Research sold for a shockingly low price and icons like Krell have been in severe financial trouble?
The high end audio business is (literally) dying, much through its own short-sightedness, but also much through changing market demands and its inability to respond.
The high end audio business is (literally) dying, much through its own short-sightedness, but also much through changing market demands and its inability to respond.
Send me the cables that you would like for me to compare and I will tell you if I like them or not in my system. How is that 😀 I do not do test studies under fire. Sorry, but that is how I roll. There maybe some others here that will feel the need to prove something. I have no need to be anyones guinea pig 😎
Krell is gone now from what I have been told. Dan, Rondi and their son are out.
There are some really good new companies that seem to be gaining traction (Modwright, Ayre, are just a couple).
There maybe a shift in the audio industry, but I do not feel that it will ever go away. Too many still enjoy the best sound they can achieve, but the lack of disposable income has definitely hurt the luxury industries big time. DIY is growing too.
I think that it is the mid market that is dying.Historic manufacturers with first class products have dissapeared.Remember Rogers speakers?and many more.
As for your ARC/Krell example,I agree.But it also clearly shows what I have told you several times,that coins have to sides,even in high-end audio.
See my comments about the demographics of high end audio events, for example in the ETF thread.
You guys are whistling past the graveyard.
You guys are whistling past the graveyard.
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