Gah, I can't resist...
Andre - why do you suggest wire gauge* can affect more than the DC resistance of a cable? Was that intentional or did I misunderstand you? Also, when you say "to reproduce music as believably as possible" do you mean 'to conduct an audio-frequency voltage signal as accurately as possible'? (including any current component, obviously). Because that's what we're talking about in this thread - specifically cable performance.
The microscopic 'tilt' in frequency response is only one aspect of what? The frequency response? If that's what you mean, what other frequency response does a cable have? If not, why is frequency response the least important aspect to you? What other aspects are important?
*I'm reading that to mean cross-sectional area of the conductor - just to make sure I'm clear to everyone what I mean
Andre - why do you suggest wire gauge* can affect more than the DC resistance of a cable? Was that intentional or did I misunderstand you? Also, when you say "to reproduce music as believably as possible" do you mean 'to conduct an audio-frequency voltage signal as accurately as possible'? (including any current component, obviously). Because that's what we're talking about in this thread - specifically cable performance.
The microscopic 'tilt' in frequency response is only one aspect of what? The frequency response? If that's what you mean, what other frequency response does a cable have? If not, why is frequency response the least important aspect to you? What other aspects are important?
*I'm reading that to mean cross-sectional area of the conductor - just to make sure I'm clear to everyone what I mean
And that conviction is why you think you hear this effect. It's nothing to do with the cables. Your brain tells you it hears something, because it expects to hear it. That's a psychological phenomenon, not an electrical one. In this case, your belief that 'inferior' cables badly affects perceived sound quality leads your brain to expect to hear that and so, consciously, that's what you perceive.
I don't doubt that people 'hear' differences between cables but it's important to understand WHY that happens. The laws of physics pretty well preclude the possibility of audible differences in cables, which leaves us with the question of how our hearing works (and our senses in general).
When an engineer sees a flashing warning light - he has to check TWO things - the object that the warning light mechanism monitors and the warning light mechanism itself. Either could be the cause of the flashing light. Science has repeatedly confirmed that electrical cables work just fine, regardless of constuction, materials, design etc so that leaves us with the matter of our hearing and how the psychology of hearing affects what we consciously perceive. Optical illusions are well understood and easily demonstrated - audible illusions are just as possible, and common. Indeed, they are well enough understood that we use that knowledge to compress digital audio via the process of modelling 'psycho-acoustic masking' in MP3 compressors.
There is, of course, a well-established method for eliminating the possibility of psyschologial effects of perception affecting the result of a listening test. It's the double-blind test. Between the DBT and AC circuit theory we can say precisely where these claimed differences lie. In the mind of the listener.
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Where's the beef?
The cable debate seems always to be divided in to two camps. The "I hear it, thus it's true." and the "I measure it, thus it's true" camps.
One claiming "You can't hear what I don't measure" and the other claiming "You can't measure what I hear." (my apologies to the fence sitters).
But here's the low down. Who builds better sounding systems? Really?
Both camps will shout "we do, we do!". But do they? Is there any evidence, objective or subjective to back it up? What would a survey of 100 or 1000 systems built using the different methods reveal? Probably a real mish-mash. Maybe no clear "winner" either way.
So "Where's the Beef?"
I know what my visits have taught me, but I wouldn't want to bias the argument.
The cable debate seems always to be divided in to two camps. The "I hear it, thus it's true." and the "I measure it, thus it's true" camps.
One claiming "You can't hear what I don't measure" and the other claiming "You can't measure what I hear." (my apologies to the fence sitters).
But here's the low down. Who builds better sounding systems? Really?
Both camps will shout "we do, we do!". But do they? Is there any evidence, objective or subjective to back it up? What would a survey of 100 or 1000 systems built using the different methods reveal? Probably a real mish-mash. Maybe no clear "winner" either way.
So "Where's the Beef?"
I know what my visits have taught me, but I wouldn't want to bias the argument.
As if I haven`t?
Edit: I might as well post this funny thing again; try out 2m lengtht, 10mm(!) thickness and think. BTW; the most importent effect doesn`t show; what the reduced resistance does to dynamics.
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Java/twin.html
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But John, I thought we were talking about interconnects? For speakers, 10 or 12 gauge Romex CAN'T have any problems in the audio band, right? For low voltage, low current interconnects, the gauge of the conductor should be much less important, no? 22 gauge solid core should be plenty to carry preamp signals in the audible frequency range, wouldn't you agree?
I am afraid that is not correct. It depends very much on the current the wire is conducting. Just try winding a 50 KHz transformer for a 500W power supply with regular magnet wire. I wouldn't test the temperature with my finger.
That is correct, however if you put in some numbers (to estimate the spectra based on the >500W SMPS current slew rates) you'll find it's orders of magnitude higher than what an audio amp can generate on the speaker connections, not to mention preamp cables.
Besides, in HF SMPSs you are using litz wire to minimize copper losses, stranded wire will do absolutely nothing. Have you seen any litz wire speaker cables? Not that I'll buy them
An excellent exploration of how skin effect affects the audible response of cables:
Skin Effect and cable impedance
A bit math heavy but you can certainly follow the text, the graphed results etc.
I'll quote the author from page 2:
Lastly, again, the result of characteristic impedance of a cable is fundamentally simple - a simple roll-off or 'tilt' in its frequency response. There's nothing anywhere in the mathematics of electrical engineering to account for the complex, subjective differences attributed to cables. Even if the actual differences were audible, they'd manifest only as a slight rolling off in level towards the very high treble.
Skin Effect and cable impedance
A bit math heavy but you can certainly follow the text, the graphed results etc.
I'll quote the author from page 2:
and again, from page 2 (regarding group delay):
IOW, skin effect is real but has no meaningful (ie audible) consequence for audio cables. 0.025dBs at 20kHz (aprox, from the graph) is a variation in level of response that is simply not detectable I believe, especially since we are talking about frequencies at the upper limit of human hearing.
Lastly, again, the result of characteristic impedance of a cable is fundamentally simple - a simple roll-off or 'tilt' in its frequency response. There's nothing anywhere in the mathematics of electrical engineering to account for the complex, subjective differences attributed to cables. Even if the actual differences were audible, they'd manifest only as a slight rolling off in level towards the very high treble.
And like a good guest I know when it is time to leave!
Buy and thanks for food and drink.
That is correct, however if you put in some numbers (to estimate the spectra based on the >500W SMPS current slew rates) you'll find it's orders of magnitude higher than what an audio amp can generate on the speaker connections, not to mention preamp cables.
Besides, in HF SMPSs you are using litz wire to minimize copper losses, stranded wire will do absolutely nothing. Have you seen any litz wire speaker cables? Not that I'll buy them
I am aware of those points. For the high current windings, we used flat copper, sometimes up to 1.5" wide and 0.015" thick. For the lower current windings, we used litz wire. The 500W figure was just an example. We made power supplies from a few watts up to 1.6KW with output voltages from a few volts up to 1.6KV. I wound almost all the prototypes during the development stage.
Yes, I have seen litz wire speaker cable. I wasn't impressed by it. I think I still have a set here somewhere that were given to me to evaluate many years ago.
See what happens when I speak about things I really know nothing about.
Still, from what I've read I don't think that skin effect has a noticeable impact at audio frequencies.
-Josh
That, you could well be correct about.
Member
Joined 2002
In all reality, the truth about this subject is, yes cables to make a difference, weather it be a really expencive cable or a cheaper cable,
Take a walmart rca cable for your analogue cd player and then use it on the left input, then buy a better quality, nothing 10,000 of thousands range but a decent priced one, and i bet there is a difference.
We all also have to talk about length, the longer you go the more acceptable to interference and noise we get.
Some times it sucks when the consumer buys a high end cable to find out that it was MASSIVELY over produced and detail and quality has been lost.
Take a walmart rca cable for your analogue cd player and then use it on the left input, then buy a better quality, nothing 10,000 of thousands range but a decent priced one, and i bet there is a difference.
We all also have to talk about length, the longer you go the more acceptable to interference and noise we get.
Some times it sucks when the consumer buys a high end cable to find out that it was MASSIVELY over produced and detail and quality has been lost.
Yes, with the listening tests I've done, I do believe there is an optimum dia cable for each use.
Yes, that's the idea.
Only one aspect of the influences cables may have on SQ. There is a loss in low level detail that isn't only restricted to HF, also stage focus are influenced, that include instruments like drums also.
Strange then, very often I hear the opposite of what I expected to hear.
I do believe our hearing abilities are underestimated in certain areas.
You certainly don't claim that MP3 is quality audio reproduction.
May be a well established method, it seems like it get used mostly to test what the average listener may hear on an unknown system in unnatural listening conditions.
I don't have a problem with blind testing when done well.
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