Since there is no consensus on the sound of different cables, and cable swappers freely admit that it is system dependent. They should be saying, "My system is very sensitive to small LCR differences in cables." A good thing? 😕
Could be. Personally i don't think lumped parameters are sufficient. Just a method of pushing the problem into the 5% of the math we can actually do.
But here is a link that definitly shows differences with a system in place.
SONICSONLINE - Audioequipment Lautsprechersystems Schallwandlersysteme der Marktführer
dave
Whether it is just LCR or includes 'other' unknown stuff is not my point, if you can't attach a certain sound to a certain cable then that sound is not a property of the cable itself. Doing the other 95% of the maths isn't going to change that surely.
Cheers
But it may well allow you to predict what cable will work when it is strung between amp A and speaker B.
dave
I think you are bending the truth a bit. 😀
Cables sound different from each other and most of the time you will find the same signature on different systems. The only thing that is system dependent is whether the properties of a cable will suit that system as well as your preferences.
A good cable on a flawed system may sound worse than a poorly made cable just because it may hide the deficiencies of the system, you would not like a silver cable on a system with harsh tops.
A while back there was a lot of discussion over the fact that, on some systems, different (but bit identical) copies of a given CD would sound different. This gave rise to CD pucks, green pens, antireflective coatings for the inside of drives, cryo treatments for CDs, special polycarbonate etc. There were also many skeptics who said that if there was no bit difference there would be no audible difference. But the effect was real, with a real cure which turned out to be quite simple - replace the system DAC with a "blameless" design, and the differences disappeared. (Blameless DAC = one which is not affected by jitter in the incoming data stream, or power supply fluctuations in designs with common drive and DAC supplies.)
So given blameless sources (not significantly affected by load impedance changes) and blameless sinks (flat impedance loads), I would expect the differences between cables to likewise disappear.
Of course, real amplifiers and real speakers are far from blameless. So when you say that silver cables exacerbate the problems of a system with harsh tops, what you are really saying is not that the cables are good - you are saying that the system is poor. Fix the system problems that make the system susceptible to the effects of different cables, and the cable differences will be much less noticeable.
Related to that, I can justify spending $25 on a set of cables if they make my system sound noticeably better than a $5 set. But it the "better" set costs $500, I'm going to spend the difference on improving some other part of the system. The $475 is going to allow me much more freedom to choose components where the designer has put some effort into making them "blameless" - unaffected by external influences. Sadly, even some high-end designs are far from blameless.
So given blameless sources (not significantly affected by load impedance changes) and blameless sinks (flat impedance loads), I would expect the differences between cables to likewise disappear.
Of course, real amplifiers and real speakers are far from blameless. So when you say that silver cables exacerbate the problems of a system with harsh tops, what you are really saying is not that the cables are good - you are saying that the system is poor. Fix the system problems that make the system susceptible to the effects of different cables, and the cable differences will be much less noticeable.
Related to that, I can justify spending $25 on a set of cables if they make my system sound noticeably better than a $5 set. But it the "better" set costs $500, I'm going to spend the difference on improving some other part of the system. The $475 is going to allow me much more freedom to choose components where the designer has put some effort into making them "blameless" - unaffected by external influences. Sadly, even some high-end designs are far from blameless.
Well my CD and pre-amp output impedances are very low and I use 47K input impedances but still find it easy to hear cable differences.
I wouldn't say good silver cables exacerbate the problems of a system, they just doesn't hide it.
Strange, most systems that I've heard that weren't influenced by cables were those that they sell at furniture stores. 😀
Conclusion, furniture stores I guess make better equipment that doesn't require cables that alter the sound! 😉
I now understand your strange world a little better.
This is from someone that has yet to do a controlled test? Your opinion should not be posted as fact until you have some documented proof behind your opinion. Generally in terms of opinion, someone who posts over and over the same mantra without proof is usually trying to convince themselves 😉
Did I assume wrong, you finally did some proper tests?
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No doubt there is always room for improvement and Im sure someone is working on that but its pretty damn good for us already and its still more accurate then anyone's ears in determining real accuracy.
No one can spot a null.
No one can auto EQ a room to improve the overall response at 8 positions ala something like Audyssey.
No one can build a speaker and tell me where the phase issue is.
The list is rather long.....but you get the point.
Anyone that wants to mock measurements should be posting in a DIY forum actually because its an insult to the audio hobby. Planet, this doesnt mean you at all!
Without measurements they truelly do not have accuracy or even the remote idea of how accurate your system is.
If accuracy isnt their goal then just go enjoy and not worry with DIY/science stuff.
Sound preference is completely different beast and I will let the subjective types worry about that. Im in the audio hobby to learn and try to have the best accuracy.
How accurately an electric guitar,electric bass,synth etc....are recorded?How does their recorded "sound"compares with the same instrument's sound played live?How about two identical guitars,who's guitarists prefer(have a certain sound preference as you say)different amplifiers/tubes/speakers?How can your preference be more "accurate" or correct than someone else's preference?Why are you right and others are wrong?Surely when unamplified instruments are recorded,your system will be closer to "real" in some recordings,while say my system will be closer to "real" in others.Who's system is more accurate and why?Can you name an accurate system?
If that's your logic conclusion, you should check them out, some doesn't even need interconnects. 😉
We only disagree on how mature & complete current measurement technology is. This was really hammered home again by my recent read of Toole's book. To get a FR measure of a loudspeaker that correlated with what people heard (remember that his mantra is that 2 ears + a brain is much more capable than a mic + an analyzer) required that he make 70 measures in an anechoic chamber good down to the transition frequency... and then fit them together into a useful metric -- not something many of us here have the capabilty to do.
Measurements are tools but as Olson says (and Toole paraphrases) "In all things audio, the ear is the final arbiter."
dave
Some of your logic again?
Nobody ever said that measurements are useless and shouldn't be done, that's your creation. If you read carefully, nobody tries to "mock measurements", we all agree that it is important and it should be done, after all measurements are done, the ears / brain are ultimately what must be satisfied, since we are talking about hi-fi and listening to music.
It is quite possible that a system measures good but doesn't sound realistic but I can also say that I've never listened to a realistic sounding system that doesn't measure good.
Some aspects that are easy to hear are difficult to measure, is that so difficult to understand?
Absolutely central to it all!!!!
DAVE,
This is one of the two or three best posts I have read on the whole of DiyAudio.com!!!🙂🙂😎
DAVE,
This is one of the two or three best posts I have read on the whole of DiyAudio.com!!!🙂🙂😎
spacial cable test
Here is the outline for a type of cable test I dreamed up yesterday after reading some papers recently posted on the forum. Tell me what you think. 🙂
Choose a system (room, speakers, source) that is known or thought to be good at imaging. Let that be your test rig.
Synthesize sounds that are placed at different areas of the soundfield. They should be placed via amplitude and time differences for the first part of the test. Try reverberant sounds for the second part of the test to test depth.
Have the subjects point to where they hear the sound. This could be done with a laser pointer onto a chart behind the speakers.
Change speaker or interconnect cables and repeat. Is there any more or less precision in the pointing?
Obviously this is a simple overview, there would be a lot of details to work out, some unknown before the attempt. But it would be interesting to test the "spacial" qualities of different wires. Do some erase minute details needed to accurately determine position?
Here is the outline for a type of cable test I dreamed up yesterday after reading some papers recently posted on the forum. Tell me what you think. 🙂
Choose a system (room, speakers, source) that is known or thought to be good at imaging. Let that be your test rig.
Synthesize sounds that are placed at different areas of the soundfield. They should be placed via amplitude and time differences for the first part of the test. Try reverberant sounds for the second part of the test to test depth.
Have the subjects point to where they hear the sound. This could be done with a laser pointer onto a chart behind the speakers.
Change speaker or interconnect cables and repeat. Is there any more or less precision in the pointing?
Obviously this is a simple overview, there would be a lot of details to work out, some unknown before the attempt. But it would be interesting to test the "spacial" qualities of different wires. Do some erase minute details needed to accurately determine position?
It seems like mocking to me but I will consider your point of view. Im happy that you believe measurements matter and its a great point about measurements atleast backing up with you hear.
I agree that what we process and conclude from what hear is very difficult to measure but measurements are not suspose to replace those conclusions either.
and I would also post that what you process and conclude from your ears is different then what you actually heard, is that so difficult to understand?
btw, This forum is never just about hifi and listening to music either. This is an audio DIY forum, I didnt read anywhere were its specific about just hifi and just listening to music. Maybe its just me I actually believe this forum to be actually about building speakers, learning how to build speakers and learning about all the science behind speakers. You shouldn't generalize and think is all about your very specific world.
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You would start with measurements dictate accuracy, the least alteration of the signal and the least amount of distortion is a good start.
Everything else is just coloration and preferences and totally subjective based on individual needs and accuracy actually has no part in this but if you are coloring your sound because you like it, its not accurate 😉
I have been in $200K rooms, I listened to all the details and hours worth of subjective blah, blah, blah from the owners. They explained why the sound is superior and accurate (Sadly, they sound like the marketing spin from Wilson)
We brought some simple measuring tools to just show the owners they simply like coloration and it has nothing to do with accuracy. I then asked why didnt have some sort of in room treatments to control some of the decay and what about the null at 250Hz.
His ears didnt tell them those are problems.
Its pretty simple with me....We use our ears and brains to enjoy an audio experiences. We use science and measurements to try and improve our setups to our level of expectations. If someone has never done measurements to figure out the unknowns how can they call themselves audio experts (posting online in a DIY/science forum like they are)?
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