Obviously you don't know about the wireless telsa-links 😉 ? I think what he is saying that at a certain point it probably doesn't matter much. I think the speaker cable in my active monitors are around 3 to 5cm at best. At that point I would hope that the cables effect should be negligible. Of course for people who are afraid of vibrations hitting an amp the psychoacoustic side effects may be too much
I don't think I can hear vibrations hitting electronics myself - well unless they are mics, pickups, or cartridges.
You have to be careful of these so-called experts. They often review their own designs - see my sig. There are a couple of experts on this forum on whom the subjective camp are all over like a cheap suit. I've heard their offerings at RMAF and the sound can only be described as dull (I bet they measured real good, though). Even one of the links you cited had a room there that was embarrassingly bad. And guess what? The brainwashed dealers with no engineering background put together systems that sound wonderful - clear, clean, undistorted and very natural and lifelike. No, they didn't design the equipment, but they certainly know how to integrate it into a successful system. When I first got into this hobby I thought it was all physics and common sense and I needed nothing from these audiophile types. I couldn't have been more wrong. There is plenty to learn from objectivists and subjectivists both, so don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
John
Almost not off topic.
Anybody here willing to spend $500 for two speaker cables and two bare full range Fe127en drivers? This rig, with the drivers in cardboard boxes, will provide you with more information, more correctly, than anything short of a full on floor standing Genesis system, and it will even do better mids than that.
Wont go much below 80 Hz, with any authority, unless you splash for a real box with some resistive ports, and will not exhibit ANY of the audiophile beloved buzz words (slam, sizzle, bloom, etc.), but, you will find music, pure and bell clear, all the way to 90db down from the max signal level of 100 db possible. And all of this with no more than 20 watts of clean, well engineered power, from almost any class of amp you care to mate it with.
Money back guarantee on this. Of course, you will have to return the items, undamaged, and pay for the freight both ways. However, the likely hood that you will even want to is very very low.
Bud
Anybody here willing to spend $500 for two speaker cables and two bare full range Fe127en drivers? This rig, with the drivers in cardboard boxes, will provide you with more information, more correctly, than anything short of a full on floor standing Genesis system, and it will even do better mids than that.
Wont go much below 80 Hz, with any authority, unless you splash for a real box with some resistive ports, and will not exhibit ANY of the audiophile beloved buzz words (slam, sizzle, bloom, etc.), but, you will find music, pure and bell clear, all the way to 90db down from the max signal level of 100 db possible. And all of this with no more than 20 watts of clean, well engineered power, from almost any class of amp you care to mate it with.
Money back guarantee on this. Of course, you will have to return the items, undamaged, and pay for the freight both ways. However, the likely hood that you will even want to is very very low.
Bud
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What does happen? And when does it happen? I am not so sure with active electronics with decent damping factor this should really come into play. And if it does well how bad is the effect? Is it so minuscule as to be swamped by much larger "problems" in the chain?
I might have been exaggerating with the length but I am sure there is some room to pull them apart - I have not dissected these yet but am planning on dissecting a cheaper brother when I get the time and money. I have seen a shot by shot dissection where the guy seemed to not like how "cheap" everything looked. they do sound great to me no matter how much fat they trimmed on these things.
I have listened to tin foil and polyprop caps resonate along with bass notes. They added a serious gargle to the mid range they were conducting.
Ended up with them isolated in their own box, because, once I had been sensitized to the gargle, I could hear it even when the cross over was moved out of the enclosure.
I doubt the 5 watt resistors were affected, but some poorly made hockey puck coils did come under suspicion and I replaced them with nonsaturable reactors, that had been vacuum varnished into obsidian like blocks.
Bud
Ended up with them isolated in their own box, because, once I had been sensitized to the gargle, I could hear it even when the cross over was moved out of the enclosure.
I doubt the 5 watt resistors were affected, but some poorly made hockey puck coils did come under suspicion and I replaced them with nonsaturable reactors, that had been vacuum varnished into obsidian like blocks.
Bud
Wanna a conclusion?
There are some:
The best cable is no cable... as this is not possible, then use what you have at your hand.
If you love to imagine things.. a creative mind..then use magic cables
If you do not love to imagine things, not unobtanium addicted, them use simple cables or paralel wiring.
Let them believe..this is human...let them say...you can listen without bother yourself.
Cables has resistance, capacitance and inductance..nothing more.
regards,
Carlos
There are some:
The best cable is no cable... as this is not possible, then use what you have at your hand.
If you love to imagine things.. a creative mind..then use magic cables
If you do not love to imagine things, not unobtanium addicted, them use simple cables or paralel wiring.
Let them believe..this is human...let them say...you can listen without bother yourself.
Cables has resistance, capacitance and inductance..nothing more.
regards,
Carlos
We want the truth and the technicall, scientific reasons to prevail (prevalecer?)
But this is not possible...not anymore... Curly will never retreat, he is a strong combative man who held the Cable flag against the poor deaf infidels...he just cannot do that, or this customers will make him eat all cables he sold them or will hung him with the damn cable or will produce a Texan barbecue with his flesh... also all he constructed to himself about audio expertise will colapse..he will be lost... this is depressive..not a good idea..let it be.
People has beliefs...i do have too...my wife is boring....nervous.... a complaining machine...but i love her and i do not want to be completelly alone..so..i believe she is special, that i cannot find a better one..simple that way....and i will counter react about other arguments as they do not interest me..the reality that interests me is the one i have painted to myself.
Some folks believe God is with them...all time long.... they think god has nothing else to do then to watch them go to the WC and other things..very crazy things.... but they believe, and this belief made them think they are special.... really special, imagine that!>..God with them all time long..talking using their tongue...beautifull imagination.... i am Christian, but not addicted to foolishes.
Let it be folks...sometimes reality is so hard that we accept imaginary things.
We leave inside a tragedy..we can pay million dollares..... we can buy the best wide world speakers...control crossovers using computers... the best power amplifiers..we can design a studio... a perfect listening room..we can call Acoustic Engineers to do the job.... we can use the best available recordings...even this way the audio is not perfect, not so interesting as live performance..so.... may be interesting to imagine the "milestone filtering cable" or something.
Let it be!
regards,
Carlos
But this is not possible...not anymore... Curly will never retreat, he is a strong combative man who held the Cable flag against the poor deaf infidels...he just cannot do that, or this customers will make him eat all cables he sold them or will hung him with the damn cable or will produce a Texan barbecue with his flesh... also all he constructed to himself about audio expertise will colapse..he will be lost... this is depressive..not a good idea..let it be.
People has beliefs...i do have too...my wife is boring....nervous.... a complaining machine...but i love her and i do not want to be completelly alone..so..i believe she is special, that i cannot find a better one..simple that way....and i will counter react about other arguments as they do not interest me..the reality that interests me is the one i have painted to myself.
Some folks believe God is with them...all time long.... they think god has nothing else to do then to watch them go to the WC and other things..very crazy things.... but they believe, and this belief made them think they are special.... really special, imagine that!>..God with them all time long..talking using their tongue...beautifull imagination.... i am Christian, but not addicted to foolishes.
Let it be folks...sometimes reality is so hard that we accept imaginary things.
We leave inside a tragedy..we can pay million dollares..... we can buy the best wide world speakers...control crossovers using computers... the best power amplifiers..we can design a studio... a perfect listening room..we can call Acoustic Engineers to do the job.... we can use the best available recordings...even this way the audio is not perfect, not so interesting as live performance..so.... may be interesting to imagine the "milestone filtering cable" or something.
Let it be!
regards,
Carlos
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Carlos,
You forgot the insulation and its dielectric properties....
For instance it is often the case that a black insulated wire can have different characteristics than the same cable with red insulation.... simply because the black is often achieved by adding carbon to the insulation for colour.
dave
Yes...i forgot Planet..but that insulation may result in...
...resistance, or capacitance or inductance, or the combination of those things.
I am glad to see you here.
Well...i will shut my damn mouth...i was banished from a Brazilian forum when i told that special cables are good to the factory and salesman factory only... and the forum owner was the representative of one of those special cable brands...i was teaching young folks how to design simple bootstrapped amplifiers Planet..doing a nice job, as no one teaches that in my country..the ignorance is maintained controled because this interests to a small ammount of guys that has the knowledge, and this means power...all that job done was lost..they have deleted me and all my job done..criminal thing against all those 60 thousand boys...so.... will not comment, we never know if forum management has one of those guys..cable salesman.
regards,
Carlos
...resistance, or capacitance or inductance, or the combination of those things.
I am glad to see you here.
Well...i will shut my damn mouth...i was banished from a Brazilian forum when i told that special cables are good to the factory and salesman factory only... and the forum owner was the representative of one of those special cable brands...i was teaching young folks how to design simple bootstrapped amplifiers Planet..doing a nice job, as no one teaches that in my country..the ignorance is maintained controled because this interests to a small ammount of guys that has the knowledge, and this means power...all that job done was lost..they have deleted me and all my job done..criminal thing against all those 60 thousand boys...so.... will not comment, we never know if forum management has one of those guys..cable salesman.
regards,
Carlos
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and we always come to the inevitable conclusion that wht we heard was but a facsimile of the real thing.....🙂
Carlos,
I am combative as there are people that do hear differences, regardless as to what measurement tools tell you and others. How can all of the customers that I have served over all these years be stupid, deaf and/or brainwashed? Almost everyone of them held an education level much higher than myself. I have served a great many electrical engineers in my life time as I work in the telecom corridor here in Dallas.
Why is it so hard to accept because many here, not everywhere, chose to know what they are capable of hearing? I just can not understand how so many can be so wrong, but so few can be so right? That is my question?
Right.
My experience is that the optimum dia would be a compromise when you use one cable for the full freq range. Larger dia (lower resistance) should be better but you start losing HF beyond a certain point. I would say the optimum range would be 12 to 14AWG but that is only my opinion based on my listening tests using +-2m cables. I would say using multi runs of 18AWG would give better results, but haven't tried it yet.
Here is a table for specs on different wire guages, note the frequencies quoted for max skin depth. Oops sorry, skin effect doesn't apply at audio frequencies but on another table I have (pdf file) it shows a 35% increase in impedance on 12 AWG wire at 20kHz (compared to DC). 😕 🙂
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
I use to evaluate using ears...i use to design/create/copy amplifiers tuning them...
using ears...i do not like calculations, also do not like theories...i cannot understand and because of that i dislike or i do not even try to understand because i dislike..i use simple methods, ohms law and so on to do my things..when i do not know i use simulator and the simulator gives me some input to complete my understanding how things works.
I am not theories addicted, also i do not believe capacitor sounds, or cable sounds, or amplifiers not vibrating will be rid of annoying things...i do not believe speaker in stands, also that stands makes difference...i am not addicted to "imaginative" things.
But i trust that human ears can detect details that instruments and simulator cannot..but also i think we use to fool ourselves loving brands, or high price things, or rarities, or fashion things, or big amplifiers or heavy amplifiers or shinny amplifiers and all that stuff influences our evaluations (a lot)..so..blind testing , from A to B, controlling and using scientifical procedure is need to tollerate, as a non precise instrument, only the human ears... listening people will evaluate...a blind test..A to B, or ABX if you prefer..and this is subjetive if you want to understand that way, as belong to a subject, a man...but is objetive as we use tricks to do not let the one perceive what is playing..we do not give time to them even to think about..it is sound and A and B... tell me the one you like the most!..just that..and fast!
I have more empathy with the ones delirates listening things and goes perceiving sound stage (brain creation..as we have not microphone position or multiple channels encoded into the audio information)..but i think this is not science and it is imagination only.
This serves to some arrogant guys to say..... "you are just unable to listen what i can listen"...this is not fair, as we cannot plug our brain into other guy brain to listen what they are listening, so, unable to enter their imaginative and creative minds we will HAVE TO accept what others say. This way, things we cannot test are hard to be posted as an afirmative...this is perceived/received/understood/ as something snobish, and coward behavior, as we cannot check that stuff that is only inside "that guy brain"
Alike religions...when you ask why God did not have pointed America, to the jews in the desert, to be the promiss land... making that people rid of all that mess we had since long time..they say it is a mistery....so... that answer..the mistery, or "you just cannot listen"..is something not decent as an argument... something alike "shut your mouth as you cannot know the truth!"
Well.... let it be... i will be reading only and not posting here.... it is more safe to me.
Will be better to me...i ensure you i will have troubles beeing here..sadly, but i have learned things all those years...about forum dinamics.
regards,
Carlos
using ears...i do not like calculations, also do not like theories...i cannot understand and because of that i dislike or i do not even try to understand because i dislike..i use simple methods, ohms law and so on to do my things..when i do not know i use simulator and the simulator gives me some input to complete my understanding how things works.
I am not theories addicted, also i do not believe capacitor sounds, or cable sounds, or amplifiers not vibrating will be rid of annoying things...i do not believe speaker in stands, also that stands makes difference...i am not addicted to "imaginative" things.
But i trust that human ears can detect details that instruments and simulator cannot..but also i think we use to fool ourselves loving brands, or high price things, or rarities, or fashion things, or big amplifiers or heavy amplifiers or shinny amplifiers and all that stuff influences our evaluations (a lot)..so..blind testing , from A to B, controlling and using scientifical procedure is need to tollerate, as a non precise instrument, only the human ears... listening people will evaluate...a blind test..A to B, or ABX if you prefer..and this is subjetive if you want to understand that way, as belong to a subject, a man...but is objetive as we use tricks to do not let the one perceive what is playing..we do not give time to them even to think about..it is sound and A and B... tell me the one you like the most!..just that..and fast!
I have more empathy with the ones delirates listening things and goes perceiving sound stage (brain creation..as we have not microphone position or multiple channels encoded into the audio information)..but i think this is not science and it is imagination only.
This serves to some arrogant guys to say..... "you are just unable to listen what i can listen"...this is not fair, as we cannot plug our brain into other guy brain to listen what they are listening, so, unable to enter their imaginative and creative minds we will HAVE TO accept what others say. This way, things we cannot test are hard to be posted as an afirmative...this is perceived/received/understood/ as something snobish, and coward behavior, as we cannot check that stuff that is only inside "that guy brain"
Alike religions...when you ask why God did not have pointed America, to the jews in the desert, to be the promiss land... making that people rid of all that mess we had since long time..they say it is a mistery....so... that answer..the mistery, or "you just cannot listen"..is something not decent as an argument... something alike "shut your mouth as you cannot know the truth!"
Well.... let it be... i will be reading only and not posting here.... it is more safe to me.
Will be better to me...i ensure you i will have troubles beeing here..sadly, but i have learned things all those years...about forum dinamics.
regards,
Carlos
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Curly you must try it once, take two lengths of lamp cord, tell yourself it is the best speakercable ever made, take a mouthfull of brandy, repeat until you believe it, then go and listen. 😀 😀 😀
Ps. Just remember to repeat this every time before you listen again. 😉
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