There's only one problem that you can't solve with headphones: soundstage depth.You cannot locate the instruments right in space with only the headphones...You can only detect strange noises or distortions a bit easier with the headphones and you can also check the frequency content easily.Truth is that you need good speakers to understand the whole picture.
But you first need to know what a good speaker is to be able to pick/design one. Not to mention good amp. If one of these is broken, you will hardly find the answer.
I don't care with soundstage. Have you ever heard how people enjoy a treble sound, bass impact, soundstage, etc and forgetting the music? Or enjoy the music and forget the former? The later will happen when things are right, believe me. I'm now listening poor quality mp3 thru 2inches speaker and i enjoy the sound very much. Do you think i can come to audio show and enjoy the sound better? NO.
Everthing is a compromise Johnego, be it amps vs amps, speakers vs speakers & hell even rooms vs rooms etc. Think the day we diyers stops mucking around & not think about what ifs in trying to make anything we build sounds better, it will be the day that we’ll look pass the equipment & start to enjoy listening to music.
Oooh & I forgot the biggest compromise our ears, like me I can only hear till 14k on my left ear & right only to 10k.
Cheers
Oooh & I forgot the biggest compromise our ears, like me I can only hear till 14k on my left ear & right only to 10k.
Cheers
I always found headphones to be way inferior to a nice stereo setup. Don't get me wrong, I use grados (RS2e around $700) and senheisers hd 600, some of the best with the best tube (from best vintage setups with best dacs) or solid state amps from shitt, this is good sound, but pale in comparison with my speakers!
This is so true, headphones are NOT accurate frequency and phase wise. They DO NOT image like speakers, They DO NOT create spacial awareness.
Spacial awareness and instrument separation comes only to those who have 2K cartridges and listen to vinyl, digital is good on good speakers but nothing prepares you to a superb sound of vinyl with a good MC like the dynavector XV-1S , a good ortophon m2 black has all frequency range but not the spacial separation of the dynavector xv1s. I own only modest cartridges, but I wish one day I will have a XV-1s or equivalent.
Sumotan, the reason we can enjoy the music when our system was simple is because there is a mechanism unknown to almost all people that makes complex system sound so wrong. Of course with expensive parts such as beryllium tweeter you can get a sound that cheap tweeter cannot have, but it is not a substitute for a correct system. When the system is correct, like I said before, the other issues (such as 0.002% THD versus 0.000001%) are not so important anymore.
I believe that you are mistakenly think that it is a big issue. It is not. What we hear (the music) is mostly far below 10kHz.
Completely disagree. You have not used good headphones if you don't think they can image as well or even better than speakers. What is the best headphone you have used? Have you ever heard a binaural recording?
Dude, I'm listening to headphones right now and I literally cannot tell that I am not at a concert or in a bar, ect. Holography is not a concern at all, it's actually scary how 3 dimensional it is. My brain keeps thinking people or instruments are in the room. You just need the right set-up and the right headphones. Can headphones image like speakers can? No not really, but they sure can do a good job.
Actually I take that back, even on ridiculously expensive speakers in purpose built rooms I've never heard it sounds as holographic as it does on headphones.
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Totally agree with you Johnego, That’s why my set up is as Kiss as I know too. Re ears tonally at least for me they sound slightly different between them even if signals are below 10k.
Just so you know I have been reading reviews of the new Project Pre 2 S. It has about 7 different filters that can be switched on the fly. Two of the professional reviewers out there can not here the difference in the filters either. I have purchased one and can not here the difference either. Well there is one that I just might be able to detect a difference but it is so small it doesn't matter. the high end along with there talking heads would like you to believe that there are massive differences in everything. It's just no true. So don't worry. The project sounds wonderful to me and Stereophile just put it in Class A.
As far as I know HQplayer has some of the best filters out there requiring a high end PC for processing. Using it I can't tell the difference between the best filters or no filter so I've basically resigned myself to the fact it does not matter. As I said earlier I used my scope today and saw that with no filters and a 44.1k file the music is pure delta sigma stair-case signal and I can't hear the difference.
I've concluded the probability that my original assessment is probably correct in that the I/V and amplifier don't have an issue reproducing the HF components and therefore they don't become nonlinear in the audio range when asked to do so Which is why I'm guessing a lot of people do hear the difference because most systems are not designed to be linear when reproducing content over 20k and it is known that they often become nonlinear when asked to do so. Seeing the staircase signal and seeing that it is identical on the input and output of my ample makes it doubtful that there can be other reasons but I'm open to other possible theories if there are any.
I've concluded the probability that my original assessment is probably correct in that the I/V and amplifier don't have an issue reproducing the HF components and therefore they don't become nonlinear in the audio range when asked to do so Which is why I'm guessing a lot of people do hear the difference because most systems are not designed to be linear when reproducing content over 20k and it is known that they often become nonlinear when asked to do so. Seeing the staircase signal and seeing that it is identical on the input and output of my ample makes it doubtful that there can be other reasons but I'm open to other possible theories if there are any.
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hellokitty123, why do you think no mixing and mastering engineers use headphones even in this earbud and headphone age?
Headphones are way too forgiving for both frequency and spatial information. You can test it yourself with free EQ and reverb plugins. You'll find that it is almost impossible to precisely determine the correct amount of EQ and reverb with headphones.
Headphones are way too forgiving for both frequency and spatial information. You can test it yourself with free EQ and reverb plugins. You'll find that it is almost impossible to precisely determine the correct amount of EQ and reverb with headphones.
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Professional reviewers are experts at telling a story and selling a product. I stopped taking what they write seriously decades ago.
Why don't you gather your "reference panel"? Make a reasonably non sighted evaluation and try if others hear a difference.
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I've listened to the best headphones in the world from Stax or Sennheiser for a few times, i even contributed to an electrostatic headphones system design and i know that binaural recording is not the standard recording process used in the industry: Binaural recording - Wikipedia
" The binaural head, or microphone, is therefore theoretically making a recording of how humans will hear multi-channel content."
Unless all the recordings will be remastered for binaural use , they will be played best on speakers as they are mastered mainly on STEREO monitor speakers .
" The binaural head, or microphone, is therefore theoretically making a recording of how humans will hear multi-channel content."
Unless all the recordings will be remastered for binaural use , they will be played best on speakers as they are mastered mainly on STEREO monitor speakers .
The frequency response in ear of the best headphones is abysmal because the ear of each individual and the ear canal is very different, more than room effects for speakers.
For proper stereo effect you need both channels to cross in space, this doesn't occur in headphones, simulating the effect in digital doesn't work well.
Maybe you can mix techno on headphones without complaints...
chris719 = I am very happy with my grado Rs2e, I recommend them. I listened to the
GS1001e and ps2000e attentively before making my decision.
The Rs2e sounds almost as good as the GS1001e, i cannot remember exactly what was the main difference, probably the bass was more defined in the GS , the PS2000e is although exceptional.
My other headphones are hd600 but they need a good amp/source.
I have closed headphones in the same range but they cant sound like open headphones.
(If you are the kind of diyer to listen to full-range mono in your garage maybe I understand that you prefer headphones...)
For proper stereo effect you need both channels to cross in space, this doesn't occur in headphones, simulating the effect in digital doesn't work well.
Maybe you can mix techno on headphones without complaints...
chris719 = I am very happy with my grado Rs2e, I recommend them. I listened to the
GS1001e and ps2000e attentively before making my decision.
The Rs2e sounds almost as good as the GS1001e, i cannot remember exactly what was the main difference, probably the bass was more defined in the GS , the PS2000e is although exceptional.
My other headphones are hd600 but they need a good amp/source.
I have closed headphones in the same range but they cant sound like open headphones.
(If you are the kind of diyer to listen to full-range mono in your garage maybe I understand that you prefer headphones...)
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None of the above is true. https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf That is why some use the Smyth Realizer to remove the HRTF. Have you tried it, it is quite amazing?
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What isn't true exactly? Headphones are inherently anechoic, low power, low excursion, small size, and due to a lack of crossover and "room" variables the phase response is good for testing amp/dac qualities.
No I haven't tried the Smyth Realizer but I really want to. It's never in stock unfortunately.
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Most hi-fi cheap consumer speakers of the 60's... 80's can give you a vastly better stereo image than the best headphones ever made today just because the music is mastered on speakers which we listen on different axis from our ears while most of the headphones have their generators on the same axis as the ears.
Some manufacturers change the headphone's generator axis for a bit, to give some more of the stereo image, but that's useless as the headphones are resonating in a very small cavity next to our ears and part of the classical stereo image is done by room reverberation .
Actually the real music on stage is partly mono as most of the players are grouped together at a big distance from the audience while the room reverberation is the one that actually helps us in having a stereo image and localize the music source a little bit better. Our ears followed an evolution path adapting to the real environment , not to mention that we also use our vision to complete the audio imaging, so when a new song is released it will be made specifically for to be listened in a small room on stereo speakers(unless is a 5.1 or 7.1) system and also to give us in an artificial way the impression that we listen to a real stage, but if you really saw that stage where they made let's say a life recording, you were struck by the fact that most of the real stereo image was way smaller than the recorded one, if not amplified , mixed and panned for the audience , just cold instruments.
Most of the real performances on stage are in reality MONO if we listen to them from more than 10 meters away .Stereo image is actually a musical effect to enhance our listening experience at home within our walls when listening on stereo speakers.
Some manufacturers change the headphone's generator axis for a bit, to give some more of the stereo image, but that's useless as the headphones are resonating in a very small cavity next to our ears and part of the classical stereo image is done by room reverberation .
Actually the real music on stage is partly mono as most of the players are grouped together at a big distance from the audience while the room reverberation is the one that actually helps us in having a stereo image and localize the music source a little bit better. Our ears followed an evolution path adapting to the real environment , not to mention that we also use our vision to complete the audio imaging, so when a new song is released it will be made specifically for to be listened in a small room on stereo speakers(unless is a 5.1 or 7.1) system and also to give us in an artificial way the impression that we listen to a real stage, but if you really saw that stage where they made let's say a life recording, you were struck by the fact that most of the real stereo image was way smaller than the recorded one, if not amplified , mixed and panned for the audience , just cold instruments.
Most of the real performances on stage are in reality MONO if we listen to them from more than 10 meters away .Stereo image is actually a musical effect to enhance our listening experience at home within our walls when listening on stereo speakers.
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Most headphones have plenty of response anomalies and they depend on each user. You also have a fundamental mis-understanding of anechoic two speakers in any space will still be heard by both ears via your personal HRTF. Headphone listening is inherently different and recordings mastered to be listened to by two speakers will always sound different. But it is always a simulation, an effect in a way. If you could sit down with a good DSP guy he could show you any effect you want, especially images all over the place, with surprisingly simple phase and amplitude manipulations.
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