Problem solved but it makes me look like a schmuck.
This just goes to show you how little attention I have been paying to the audio in theaters.
I remember when "Independence Day" came to one of our theaters, that the THX logo was presented before the film and there was this dumb little animated guy flying around on the screen and disappearing to fix the rear speakers.
Naturally I believed that this was a THX certified theater and would remain so. NOT TRUE! And, come to think of it, I don't believe I have seen the THX logo since.
I did some checking today and it seems that there are 0 theaters in Eugene with THX!
So, I withdraw just about everything I said and now ask for suggestions for an equipment purchase. I can easily take care of the speaker and amp needs but will need a DVD player and processor.
I just I will have to boogie up to Portland to see if it's all worth it.
This just goes to show you how little attention I have been paying to the audio in theaters.
I remember when "Independence Day" came to one of our theaters, that the THX logo was presented before the film and there was this dumb little animated guy flying around on the screen and disappearing to fix the rear speakers.
Naturally I believed that this was a THX certified theater and would remain so. NOT TRUE! And, come to think of it, I don't believe I have seen the THX logo since.
I did some checking today and it seems that there are 0 theaters in Eugene with THX!
So, I withdraw just about everything I said and now ask for suggestions for an equipment purchase. I can easily take care of the speaker and amp needs but will need a DVD player and processor.
I just I will have to boogie up to Portland to see if it's all worth it.
Bill Fitzpatrick said:
My vote is Arcam all the way!
If you can pick up a S/H Alpha 10 with the DAVE module you will get a real bargain. The decoding, although basic from the feature level, is spot on for quality, with excellent channel separation, and huge dynamics. And the inbuilt 100w amps, despite being MOSFETS, (oops, flame war potential 😉 ) sound very good, and would work well for driving rear speakers.
The DIVA dvd players are also excellent, with great picture quality, and pretty good audio only CD playing as well, in fact, if you had a separate DAC for audio use, you could lose your CD player
Brett D. said:
Was useful for catching Buffy & FarScape... now that they are both ended i don't know 🙁
dave
Bill Fitzpatrick said:
The Arcam PM mentions has a good rep... i have a Technics SH-AC500D which is stand-alone, tweakable and pretty good. Price used -- if you are patient enuff for one to show up -- are quite reasonable.
dave
Bill Fitzpatrick said:
So do I. After installing a few and even having one of my own for a short while, I think they're vastly overrated, except at the very upper end of the price scale, ie dedicated room custom install jobs.
Most of the information on the rear channels can easily be done without unless you're into gee-whizz sound effects stuff, and in most domestic situations, centre channel speakers whith different FR, dispersion and distortion, simply call attention to themselves, in almost every situation I've heard (ie lots).
Getting the front end right (stereo mains), a good DVDP and amps is enough most of the time, certainly to induce suspension of beleif. Most movies don't have a need for rear channels. Especially if they have a plot, characterisations and are well made.
Note: I watch a lot of movies on DVD, and gasp!! VHS, because out here in the boonies, TV reception is utter shite, and so is 90% of the content.
Now my 2c on not going to the theatre because the sound isn't good enough. The theatre and outing itself is part of the experience. You can't create that at home.
For Bill. Borrow some gear and play with it before you shell out the bucks. If you beleive all the hype, you may be in for a big disappointment. Then again you may love it.
planet10 said:
I like Buffy's end.
Re: Re: HT vs Stereo - an issue not covered?
Pun intended?
They sure left a pretty big crater behind... i'm wondering how they are going to resurrect Spike so he can be on Angel next year?
dave
Brett said:
Pun intended?
They sure left a pretty big crater behind... i'm wondering how they are going to resurrect Spike so he can be on Angel next year?
dave
See? Like I always say, "Hang back long enough and someone will show up who agrees with you."
I'll test drive a theater in Portland first.
As to the theater experience, I already have that. . .
Someone stands outside my front door and sells me a ticket. I then complain about the price but no one is listening - I could have had some prime rib. Just inside the hallway I have a device that issues the truly disgusting aroma of fake butter. I avoid the concession stand and surpress the urge to ride the plastic motorcycle. Further inside someone takes my ticket and later walks around the living room with a flash light and checks the back door. With the flashlight bearer acting as a latecomer trying to get past my seat, a cardboard cutout of a head placed in front of me and a previously prepared unflushed toilet, I'm in seventh heaven. After 45 minutes has elapsed and I can no longer tolerate the lousy movie, I walk out. Days later, I'm informed that I left just before the picture got good so I have to re-rent the movie and go through it all over again. This cycle continues to repeat itself until I stay for the end of the movie. Only then am I free again.
I'll test drive a theater in Portland first.
As to the theater experience, I already have that. . .
Someone stands outside my front door and sells me a ticket. I then complain about the price but no one is listening - I could have had some prime rib. Just inside the hallway I have a device that issues the truly disgusting aroma of fake butter. I avoid the concession stand and surpress the urge to ride the plastic motorcycle. Further inside someone takes my ticket and later walks around the living room with a flash light and checks the back door. With the flashlight bearer acting as a latecomer trying to get past my seat, a cardboard cutout of a head placed in front of me and a previously prepared unflushed toilet, I'm in seventh heaven. After 45 minutes has elapsed and I can no longer tolerate the lousy movie, I walk out. Days later, I'm informed that I left just before the picture got good so I have to re-rent the movie and go through it all over again. This cycle continues to repeat itself until I stay for the end of the movie. Only then am I free again.
Maybe I'm just lucky Bill. Small family owned theatre, brand new projector (sound's still mediocre but it's in negotiation) but it's the only place for 100km and it's a big social event where I get to see lots of people I know, eat good popcorn and have fun. It's clean, well maintained and you're greeted with a smile (that's actually meant).
I could also drink at home on my own, but that doesn't always equate to more enjoyable than the 'local'.
It must really suck living in a city.
I could also drink at home on my own, but that doesn't always equate to more enjoyable than the 'local'.
It must really suck living in a city.
Hi everyone,
I'm quite liking this thread. I'm really glad you brought it up, Bill.
I hope I didn't seem disagreeable. I was only trying to change your starting point of reference.
May I suggest you look at the SACD/DVD players from Sony. I normally would never have looked at these, but I find they are underpriced gems. Not so beautiful, but...
Bring all the usual CDs for testing the sound quality. For DVDs, I suggest Attack of the Clones for the richness of sound in the big light saber battle, Blackhawk Down for well done moving objects and Spiderman for the psychotic arguments between Goblin and Osborne. With DVDs you are really only checking to see that the store has implemented 5.1 with some basic skill. The CDs will tell you a lot more about the system components.
The Sony models have 5.1 analog outputs and onboard decoding so you can pick and choose your amplification. With 3 pre-amps of the same make, one remote can control volumes and match levels from your seat.
Or like me, you can grow over time. I started with my old Marantz driving a pair of Tannoys and used the TV for centre after running a Y-split from the DVD. I recently got a pair of active Yorkvilles for the mains and "relegated" the Tannoys for surround. Volume is from a 4-buss mixer and I stopped using the TV for centre.
The last movie I saw was T3 with my friends... in another city! Good film - worth full price but not after having to line up.
Went to one of the new "SilverCity" rooms with the ultra-sloped floor so my 5'4" eyes could see over the hockey players in the next row. Big popcorn at $6.00 CDN and real (no kidding!) butter for extra $0.50. Could no longer afford to buy water so drank from the tap in the washroom. Surprisingly clean washroom - the automatic flush takes care of that, but still the small moat surrounding the ceramics. No smiles from the staff. No flashlights, but a pair of late-comers. Didn't actually block the view, but the motion was distracting. They were polite enough to have worn black.
Sound presented in THX, levels set just right (ignore the ads, they are always 3-6db higher) for nearly perfect subliminals and no overdone flying effects. Nobody chattering near me. One cell phone but it was during a big shootout (I hope that doesn't give away the plot - heh!). And one idiot crunching a popcorn bag during the tense moments. To my shame, it was me... All in all, not bad, but still questionable at $13.50 CDN for the ticket.
My friends are not 'philes nor even close, so it was hard to discuss the beauty of the mix. Only two friends in Vancouver have the ears for this. One is blind so I cannot see films with him. We do spend a lot of time in the pre-owned section of Commercial Electronics. The other is a recording engineer so he has very little spare time. It sucks in this city.
🙂ensen.
I'm quite liking this thread. I'm really glad you brought it up, Bill.
Bill Fitzpatrick said:
I hope I didn't seem disagreeable. I was only trying to change your starting point of reference.
May I suggest you look at the SACD/DVD players from Sony. I normally would never have looked at these, but I find they are underpriced gems. Not so beautiful, but...
Bring all the usual CDs for testing the sound quality. For DVDs, I suggest Attack of the Clones for the richness of sound in the big light saber battle, Blackhawk Down for well done moving objects and Spiderman for the psychotic arguments between Goblin and Osborne. With DVDs you are really only checking to see that the store has implemented 5.1 with some basic skill. The CDs will tell you a lot more about the system components.
The Sony models have 5.1 analog outputs and onboard decoding so you can pick and choose your amplification. With 3 pre-amps of the same make, one remote can control volumes and match levels from your seat.
Or like me, you can grow over time. I started with my old Marantz driving a pair of Tannoys and used the TV for centre after running a Y-split from the DVD. I recently got a pair of active Yorkvilles for the mains and "relegated" the Tannoys for surround. Volume is from a 4-buss mixer and I stopped using the TV for centre.
Brett said:
The last movie I saw was T3 with my friends... in another city! Good film - worth full price but not after having to line up.
Went to one of the new "SilverCity" rooms with the ultra-sloped floor so my 5'4" eyes could see over the hockey players in the next row. Big popcorn at $6.00 CDN and real (no kidding!) butter for extra $0.50. Could no longer afford to buy water so drank from the tap in the washroom. Surprisingly clean washroom - the automatic flush takes care of that, but still the small moat surrounding the ceramics. No smiles from the staff. No flashlights, but a pair of late-comers. Didn't actually block the view, but the motion was distracting. They were polite enough to have worn black.
Sound presented in THX, levels set just right (ignore the ads, they are always 3-6db higher) for nearly perfect subliminals and no overdone flying effects. Nobody chattering near me. One cell phone but it was during a big shootout (I hope that doesn't give away the plot - heh!). And one idiot crunching a popcorn bag during the tense moments. To my shame, it was me... All in all, not bad, but still questionable at $13.50 CDN for the ticket.
My friends are not 'philes nor even close, so it was hard to discuss the beauty of the mix. Only two friends in Vancouver have the ears for this. One is blind so I cannot see films with him. We do spend a lot of time in the pre-owned section of Commercial Electronics. The other is a recording engineer so he has very little spare time. It sucks in this city.
🙂ensen.
Brett,
You say that the theater and the outing is "part of the experiance"
and while that may be the case for some people I would much
rather spend a night at home on the comfy recliner or couch and
watch a movie in peace rather than listen to obnoxious people
talk, chew popcorn, sip thier empty pop containers not to mention
spending all that wasted money on said refreshments and the
over priced tickets ta boot. Instead of wasting all that money to
see the movie once I can buy the DVD and own it for life.
As far as HT Setups are concerned, with good speakers you don't
run into such issues as non even soundfields. My mains and
center all run exact same drivers in same airspace enclosures
both with the same arangement. Well placed and level matched
a center will not call any more attention to it's self than the main
L/R does in my experiance. Plus you can always use identical
L/C/R/S speakers from numerous companies without spending a
fortune or you can always DIY them and you can DIY a 5.1 setup
on the cheap too! Like 5 Micro's running Tang Band 3 inchers and
a good 12" sub. Add a Processor/Amp or a Receiver a Monitor and
DVDP and you're good to go and it doesn't have to cost a ton.
All I can say is we hear what our minds want us to hear.. We can
measure things all day long and debate this vs. that and never
come up with a clear answer. But when I put a THX Demo Disk in
and play it.. And my Dog looks all around the room trying to find
that Bee (THX Demo: Jungle Sounds) you know it's right...
You say that the theater and the outing is "part of the experiance"
and while that may be the case for some people I would much
rather spend a night at home on the comfy recliner or couch and
watch a movie in peace rather than listen to obnoxious people
talk, chew popcorn, sip thier empty pop containers not to mention
spending all that wasted money on said refreshments and the
over priced tickets ta boot. Instead of wasting all that money to
see the movie once I can buy the DVD and own it for life.
As far as HT Setups are concerned, with good speakers you don't
run into such issues as non even soundfields. My mains and
center all run exact same drivers in same airspace enclosures
both with the same arangement. Well placed and level matched
a center will not call any more attention to it's self than the main
L/R does in my experiance. Plus you can always use identical
L/C/R/S speakers from numerous companies without spending a
fortune or you can always DIY them and you can DIY a 5.1 setup
on the cheap too! Like 5 Micro's running Tang Band 3 inchers and
a good 12" sub. Add a Processor/Amp or a Receiver a Monitor and
DVDP and you're good to go and it doesn't have to cost a ton.
All I can say is we hear what our minds want us to hear.. We can
measure things all day long and debate this vs. that and never
come up with a clear answer. But when I put a THX Demo Disk in
and play it.. And my Dog looks all around the room trying to find
that Bee (THX Demo: Jungle Sounds) you know it's right...
Brett D. said:
Every session at my local theatre is $A5.50/$US3.70. I can't hire a new release DVD for that, and it's 1/5 to 1/6 of the purchase price of the average DVD.
I find all the domestic distractions, and the poxy small screen to be a far larger impediment to 'suspension of disbelief' that a few wrappers crumpling.
I have no problem picking the centre out in every situation, except where it's an identical speaker, implemented the same way, at the same height. That usually only happens in custom rooms with a screen and the centre behind it.
Well that depends on what you have for mains doesn't it? Not everyone has the space or wallet for a seperate HT. So, to add a centre and rears that are of equivalent quality to my mains is going to be expensive, or they will draw attention to themselves. As for 5 TB's and a 12"sub, blech!, I'd rather just use the TV speaker. There is no way that a 5 pack of modest speakers and a cheap sub are ever doing to keep up with my mains in terms of dynamic range, distortion, SPL and the ability to effortlessly move air. Without that, the rest is deckchairs on the Titanic.
All I can say is we hear what our minds want us to hear.. We can
measure things all day long and debate this vs. that and never
come up with a clear answer. But when I put a THX Demo Disk in
and play it.. And my Dog looks all around the room trying to find
that Bee (THX Demo: Jungle Sounds) you know it's right...
I have a pair of speakers only. Yet my dog manages to jump around and look for people/sounds too emanating from the movie too. So on that basis, I've acheived what you've got.
You obviously like what you have. Fine. I just don't think it's neccessary for the experience to have 5 speakers. Spending the money that a processor and 3 extra speaks and a sub costs, would be far, far better spent for most people on a really good set of mains rather than compromising the lot.
Sorry in advance for the huge post. I hope you all find it worthwhile.
🙂ensen.
Okay, this is how I understand everyone's point of reference.
Bill: You have a VCR hooked up to a stereo and have crappy choices for movie theatres in the Eugene area. You've been convinced that some test driving is now in order.
Roddyama: You don't have 5.1 because you think it will compromise your 2-ch if not implemented properly.
Chris: You have both a 2-ch and 5.1 system in the same room and watch movies in whichever format sounds better.
Millwood: You like way surround locates the sounds. You haven't said what kind of system is in place.
Dave: From the tone of your posts, it appears you have the equipment for 5.1, but nothing conclusive in this thread, except for the Technics. You would like to see HD3D in person.
Tiroth: You have taken the time to change the levels on your 5.1 system for best effect. You won't listen to music in surround or watch movies in stereo.
Brett D: You have a treated room for your surround system. It performs better than all the local theatres. You have not had a THX-certified theatre experience in quite a while.
Pinkmouse: You like Arcam and I will (probably in error) assume that you have a surround system with (some) Arcam components.
Brett: You used to have a surround system but now only have stereo that is well-implemented because you believe that it is more than enough for most movies.
If I've made an error here, please chime in. I hope I haven't because...
Bill: Don't just let the salespeople play whatever DVD is available. Something that was mastered at Skywalker Sound will have the extra 2% and if a system can't show it to you, then...
Roddyama and Brett: You are right to believe that bad 5.1 compromises 2-ch. Please read on and see why Chris, Millwood, Tiroth and Brett D. say what they say and why I believe you can do good 5.1 without too much effort and cost.
Chris: The reason Barney may sound better than Mick Fleetwood is probably because the software is mixed well for surround while Mick had already downmixed before dumping to DVD.
Dave: Have you checked out the IMAX theatre? It is even better than THX, but unfortunately has very little software. 50-foot Yoda - nuf said.
Pink: Arcam is nice. I wish I could afford one of them. What else in yours?
Finally, I think it is important to state that both the hardware _and_ the software make a difference in how the various systems present music and/or movies.
Now, 2 decades after Return of the Jedi, most of the good theatres have the proper hardware in place. Not all good theatres are THX-certified, but many will pass if tested. THX theatres should not sound inferior, if so, call Lucasfilm and get them de-rated.
For our homes, all we have to do is "copy" these implementations and all the good software should come as alive as the sound designers intend.
Warning tech tip: Skip if not needed.
THX is just a standard for hardware quality, speaker placement and overall system calibration.
4.0
The original Hafler matrix algorithm and specifies that 4-channel surround be encoded into 2-channels for backward compatibility with stereo delivery methods. Recall that at the time, all theatres had projectors that decoded the stereo sound track right off the film. This is the reason for the 4:2 algorithm. During playback, centre was merely the sum of left and right with a 7KHz low-pass to remove the directional information and down 3db to negate the summed RMS. This helps to locate signals that are already mono right in the middle of the screen. Surround was a single rear channel that was encoded as a L minus R signal and played back at +3db to negate the minused RMS and delayed by about 15ms (effective) to encourage the brain into believing the sounds do not come from in front. Both the centre and surround tracks were mixed into the L/R tracks 90deg out of phase so that stereo playback would appear normal. Without the phase difference, it would sound horrible without decoding. That is the Jedi mind trick that is not very commonly known.
5.1
Dolby Surround specified two more speakers. One was a subwoofer to take care of low frequencies by taking the centre (or LR) information and low-passing it again. The second was a yet another surround speaker so that a pair could be placed at the sides instead of the Hafler single surround placed directly behind. This ensured that surround sounds were more clear since they were not in the listener's dead zone.
Dolby ProLogic is an extension of DS that adds more localization of directional sounds by using amplifiers controlled by logic. If a sound was only placed on one of the 4 channels, it would be amplified because it was assumed that it was directional information.
It should be noted that the software up to this point was still arriving in 2-channel to be decoded (hence the term decoder) into the 5.1 channels. The major drawback here is that while channel separation was very high between the mains and the centre/surround tracks, it was only about 3db between left and right and only 3db between front and back. Not even close to audiophile quality.
Step in the discrete algorithms.
AC3 (Dolby Digital) and DTS are both software encoding algorithms of discrete 6-ch sound. They specify no filters as the tracks can contain all the directional information needed and provide high channel separation since there is no multi-tracking or phase changes. There is a preference in some circles for DTS because it doesn't put as much digital compression on the data as does AC3.
There are new systems for 6.1 and 7.1 and recently, 10.2 channels. The 6.1 and 7.1 are known as EX systems and the software is no longer true discrete. Rather, one or two centre surrounds are encoded much like the front centre of the old Hafler matrix. The channel separation remains high since no other tracks are encoded. Tomlinson Holman recently demo'ed 10.2 at the AES in Banff but he is the only known source for software and he ain't distributing.
End tech tip.
Continued in next post...
🙂ensen.
Okay, this is how I understand everyone's point of reference.
Bill: You have a VCR hooked up to a stereo and have crappy choices for movie theatres in the Eugene area. You've been convinced that some test driving is now in order.
Roddyama: You don't have 5.1 because you think it will compromise your 2-ch if not implemented properly.
Chris: You have both a 2-ch and 5.1 system in the same room and watch movies in whichever format sounds better.
Millwood: You like way surround locates the sounds. You haven't said what kind of system is in place.
Dave: From the tone of your posts, it appears you have the equipment for 5.1, but nothing conclusive in this thread, except for the Technics. You would like to see HD3D in person.
Tiroth: You have taken the time to change the levels on your 5.1 system for best effect. You won't listen to music in surround or watch movies in stereo.
Brett D: You have a treated room for your surround system. It performs better than all the local theatres. You have not had a THX-certified theatre experience in quite a while.
Pinkmouse: You like Arcam and I will (probably in error) assume that you have a surround system with (some) Arcam components.
Brett: You used to have a surround system but now only have stereo that is well-implemented because you believe that it is more than enough for most movies.
If I've made an error here, please chime in. I hope I haven't because...
Bill: Don't just let the salespeople play whatever DVD is available. Something that was mastered at Skywalker Sound will have the extra 2% and if a system can't show it to you, then...
Roddyama and Brett: You are right to believe that bad 5.1 compromises 2-ch. Please read on and see why Chris, Millwood, Tiroth and Brett D. say what they say and why I believe you can do good 5.1 without too much effort and cost.
Chris: The reason Barney may sound better than Mick Fleetwood is probably because the software is mixed well for surround while Mick had already downmixed before dumping to DVD.
Dave: Have you checked out the IMAX theatre? It is even better than THX, but unfortunately has very little software. 50-foot Yoda - nuf said.
Pink: Arcam is nice. I wish I could afford one of them. What else in yours?
Finally, I think it is important to state that both the hardware _and_ the software make a difference in how the various systems present music and/or movies.
Now, 2 decades after Return of the Jedi, most of the good theatres have the proper hardware in place. Not all good theatres are THX-certified, but many will pass if tested. THX theatres should not sound inferior, if so, call Lucasfilm and get them de-rated.
For our homes, all we have to do is "copy" these implementations and all the good software should come as alive as the sound designers intend.
Warning tech tip: Skip if not needed.
THX is just a standard for hardware quality, speaker placement and overall system calibration.
4.0
The original Hafler matrix algorithm and specifies that 4-channel surround be encoded into 2-channels for backward compatibility with stereo delivery methods. Recall that at the time, all theatres had projectors that decoded the stereo sound track right off the film. This is the reason for the 4:2 algorithm. During playback, centre was merely the sum of left and right with a 7KHz low-pass to remove the directional information and down 3db to negate the summed RMS. This helps to locate signals that are already mono right in the middle of the screen. Surround was a single rear channel that was encoded as a L minus R signal and played back at +3db to negate the minused RMS and delayed by about 15ms (effective) to encourage the brain into believing the sounds do not come from in front. Both the centre and surround tracks were mixed into the L/R tracks 90deg out of phase so that stereo playback would appear normal. Without the phase difference, it would sound horrible without decoding. That is the Jedi mind trick that is not very commonly known.
5.1
Dolby Surround specified two more speakers. One was a subwoofer to take care of low frequencies by taking the centre (or LR) information and low-passing it again. The second was a yet another surround speaker so that a pair could be placed at the sides instead of the Hafler single surround placed directly behind. This ensured that surround sounds were more clear since they were not in the listener's dead zone.
Dolby ProLogic is an extension of DS that adds more localization of directional sounds by using amplifiers controlled by logic. If a sound was only placed on one of the 4 channels, it would be amplified because it was assumed that it was directional information.
It should be noted that the software up to this point was still arriving in 2-channel to be decoded (hence the term decoder) into the 5.1 channels. The major drawback here is that while channel separation was very high between the mains and the centre/surround tracks, it was only about 3db between left and right and only 3db between front and back. Not even close to audiophile quality.
Step in the discrete algorithms.
AC3 (Dolby Digital) and DTS are both software encoding algorithms of discrete 6-ch sound. They specify no filters as the tracks can contain all the directional information needed and provide high channel separation since there is no multi-tracking or phase changes. There is a preference in some circles for DTS because it doesn't put as much digital compression on the data as does AC3.
There are new systems for 6.1 and 7.1 and recently, 10.2 channels. The 6.1 and 7.1 are known as EX systems and the software is no longer true discrete. Rather, one or two centre surrounds are encoded much like the front centre of the old Hafler matrix. The channel separation remains high since no other tracks are encoded. Tomlinson Holman recently demo'ed 10.2 at the AES in Banff but he is the only known source for software and he ain't distributing.
End tech tip.
Continued in next post...
Continued from previous post...
So, how to copy a THX-certified room without having to pay the THX-certified price.
1) Get good speakers. This is not necessarily expensive. My Tannoy Proto-J studio monitors are about C$125 each. They are shielded and better than practically everything up to 4 times their price. Start with the mains. Good mains won't need subs for 99% of software. A well matched pair will make the phantom centre really good. You do not need surrounds with the same bass as the mains. Remember that most surround tracks contain directional information, so the lower frequencies don't matter as much. The one exception is SACD-multi which (in theory) requires high-quality full-range speakers at each of the 5 positions.
2) Position the speakers properly. There are a number of good articles on the web about this. I'll let you do the research. For the asking, I'll discuss specifics, including dipoles, etc. in later posts.
3) Get clean amplification. Loud is not necessary since you are filling a relatively small room with a lot of SPL. It is more important to have a quiet amp for all the silent passages in a film than one that has enough power for the neighbourhood. True RMS rules the day here, don't be fooled by the consumer specs, check the power consumption. 6 x 100W RMS should need a large power supply. In reality transformers give off about 50% in heat so for any amp output, at least the same energy is lost unit should draw about 1200 Watts.
4) Digital processing power is not absolutely necessary (at least not in the audio realm). Many set-ups have a great DVD and crappy "digital-ready" receiver. These sound horrible, especially the consumer Yamaha RXV series. If you implement 4.0 really well, then you will do better than a crappy 5.1 ProLogic.
The best way to start is get a DVD with really good 2-channel output, then run 5.1 decoding in analog. Circle Surround makes (made?) a great analog decoder. Or implement Rod Elliott's awesome little DIY Hafler box. If you want, upgrade the op-amps in his circuit and if you use good amps as in #2 it will sound great.
5) Defeat the surround circuitry if you are listening to music that is 2-channel stereo. Some music has been surround encoded, but this is extremely rare. If you want, punch in the sub, but leave the centre and the surround amps out of it. Better yet, get a (or keep your old) CD player and don't use the DVD player for music. The analog stages are usually better.
6) If you started with 2-ch DVD, upgrade by getting a 5.1 digital decoder and using the coax digital connection. If you implemented the amps properly for 4.0 and 5.1 matrix, then you won't have to change anything.
7) Match your levels properly. At least use the THX audio test tones on your disc or the on-board hardware test tones. An SPL is even better, but anything is better than un-matched.
8) Get good software and set the sound properly. If the menus have a selection for Dolby 2.0 then use it if you are running a matrix decoding scheme. The discrete users don't have to do anything.
9) If you don't have speakers and amps yet, consider getting a number of active studio monitors. This way you get amps that are match to the speakers and get very high performance for any given amount spent. There are many manufacturers, they come in a range of sizes and prices and some even come with volume control. Also, most are for "professional" use so the published specs are more truthful than for consumer brands. For the beginners I recommend M-Audio as they are about C$600 pair and are bi-amped. That's 2 enclosures, 4 drivers and 4 amps for the price of a decent pair of speakers. You will need a sub for anything lower than about 100Hz, but in most cases, you knew that already.
10) My personal preference is for 2 centre speakers positioned on the horizontal mid-axis of the screen. That way, they create a new virtual centre that lies in the middle of the image. I've tried this (had to re-wire the surrounds temporarily) and it works really well. I hate it when the image seems to come from above the image - oh wait, is that a lone centre speaker sitting on top of the TV. Hmmm....
🙂ensen.
So, how to copy a THX-certified room without having to pay the THX-certified price.
1) Get good speakers. This is not necessarily expensive. My Tannoy Proto-J studio monitors are about C$125 each. They are shielded and better than practically everything up to 4 times their price. Start with the mains. Good mains won't need subs for 99% of software. A well matched pair will make the phantom centre really good. You do not need surrounds with the same bass as the mains. Remember that most surround tracks contain directional information, so the lower frequencies don't matter as much. The one exception is SACD-multi which (in theory) requires high-quality full-range speakers at each of the 5 positions.
2) Position the speakers properly. There are a number of good articles on the web about this. I'll let you do the research. For the asking, I'll discuss specifics, including dipoles, etc. in later posts.
3) Get clean amplification. Loud is not necessary since you are filling a relatively small room with a lot of SPL. It is more important to have a quiet amp for all the silent passages in a film than one that has enough power for the neighbourhood. True RMS rules the day here, don't be fooled by the consumer specs, check the power consumption. 6 x 100W RMS should need a large power supply. In reality transformers give off about 50% in heat so for any amp output, at least the same energy is lost unit should draw about 1200 Watts.
4) Digital processing power is not absolutely necessary (at least not in the audio realm). Many set-ups have a great DVD and crappy "digital-ready" receiver. These sound horrible, especially the consumer Yamaha RXV series. If you implement 4.0 really well, then you will do better than a crappy 5.1 ProLogic.
The best way to start is get a DVD with really good 2-channel output, then run 5.1 decoding in analog. Circle Surround makes (made?) a great analog decoder. Or implement Rod Elliott's awesome little DIY Hafler box. If you want, upgrade the op-amps in his circuit and if you use good amps as in #2 it will sound great.
5) Defeat the surround circuitry if you are listening to music that is 2-channel stereo. Some music has been surround encoded, but this is extremely rare. If you want, punch in the sub, but leave the centre and the surround amps out of it. Better yet, get a (or keep your old) CD player and don't use the DVD player for music. The analog stages are usually better.
6) If you started with 2-ch DVD, upgrade by getting a 5.1 digital decoder and using the coax digital connection. If you implemented the amps properly for 4.0 and 5.1 matrix, then you won't have to change anything.
7) Match your levels properly. At least use the THX audio test tones on your disc or the on-board hardware test tones. An SPL is even better, but anything is better than un-matched.
8) Get good software and set the sound properly. If the menus have a selection for Dolby 2.0 then use it if you are running a matrix decoding scheme. The discrete users don't have to do anything.
9) If you don't have speakers and amps yet, consider getting a number of active studio monitors. This way you get amps that are match to the speakers and get very high performance for any given amount spent. There are many manufacturers, they come in a range of sizes and prices and some even come with volume control. Also, most are for "professional" use so the published specs are more truthful than for consumer brands. For the beginners I recommend M-Audio as they are about C$600 pair and are bi-amped. That's 2 enclosures, 4 drivers and 4 amps for the price of a decent pair of speakers. You will need a sub for anything lower than about 100Hz, but in most cases, you knew that already.
10) My personal preference is for 2 centre speakers positioned on the horizontal mid-axis of the screen. That way, they create a new virtual centre that lies in the middle of the image. I've tried this (had to re-wire the surrounds temporarily) and it works really well. I hate it when the image seems to come from above the image - oh wait, is that a lone centre speaker sitting on top of the TV. Hmmm....
🙂ensen.
Ensen,
Very good (and very informative ) post.
I just wanted to clear something up. Not all THX Theaters are up
to the same level of one another I think. I guess it all depends on
how "good" the THX installer did his or her job and the equipment
the theater chooses to run because let's face it there is no set in
stone brand of speakers or amplification that any theater runs.
My home system performs very well that is all I was saying, not
that it will outperform "all" THX Theaters just that to me, it sounds
better than any of the local theaters I have ever been in.
As far as 2Ch vs. Multichannel from my experiance if you want the
best of both worlds then you simply need two seperate systems.
I am sure you could acheive a fairly good 2ch system if your Pre
Pro is something on the order of a Krell Showcase or AVM-20 etc.
but for my personal taste, seperate was better.
For my HT I run an Onkyo TX-DS787 which is a THX Select Cert
7.1 Receiver that puts out 100w RMS x 6Ch @8Ohm and 110W x
6Ch @6Ohm (this was made well before the recent bunch of stuff
from Onk that does not measure with all channels driven at thier
rated output. The 787 was only second to the Flagship 989 when
I picked it up) even with the amount of power that it puts out I
still run an Onkyo M282B 2 Ch Power Amp to feed my mains when
running HT (Use the Reciever to power the Bookshelf Surrounds
and the large Center).
For Music I run a Parasound Halo P3 into a pair of 20W Push/Pull
ASL Wave20 Monoblock Tubes. Completely seperate systems for
completely seperate tasks. I am not into "multichannel" music.
I have listened to some regular multichannel stuff but I have not
heard a proper SACD setup yet and most likely won't. Buying a
music collection all over again is pointless to me and I guess I
sort of see Bill's argument here.
It does seem like they want to generate sales, create a new
format and everyone will want it and they will buy our wares all
over again (for the third or more time..) well, I will not.
I love the way my 2Ch sounds and when my 7.5' tall Line Array's
are done it will only get much better.. I am not delving into SACD
or DVD-A as interesting as the concepts are and the masterering
may be of a higher quality but I can not bring myself to do it all
over again.
So Bill I do see you and Brett's point...
Brett,
As far as a night at the movies is concerned. Where I live the
price of admission per person is $6.50 US each person plus
anything else. For two people this outing (plus dinner) can and
will cost well into the $50.00 US or more dollar range. And if you
enjoy that, then certainly more power to you. But I do not enjoy
the utter distraction and obnoxiousness found at most theaters.
For me the only reason I ever went was for the "big screen" well
I have one at home and better sound than the local theaters plus
when I want to smoke I can just pause the DVD go outside and
have my nicotene fit and come back in and never miss a beat. Not
to mention the couch is very conducive to sleeping 🙂
In the end it all comes down to what we each enjoy. I have spent
much time and some money to turn my living room into a mini
theater that sounds great, looks great and causes friends jaws
to drop! And when I am done watching a movie I can flip right
over to 2Ch and dim the lights and relax 🙂
Very good (and very informative ) post.
I just wanted to clear something up. Not all THX Theaters are up
to the same level of one another I think. I guess it all depends on
how "good" the THX installer did his or her job and the equipment
the theater chooses to run because let's face it there is no set in
stone brand of speakers or amplification that any theater runs.
My home system performs very well that is all I was saying, not
that it will outperform "all" THX Theaters just that to me, it sounds
better than any of the local theaters I have ever been in.
As far as 2Ch vs. Multichannel from my experiance if you want the
best of both worlds then you simply need two seperate systems.
I am sure you could acheive a fairly good 2ch system if your Pre
Pro is something on the order of a Krell Showcase or AVM-20 etc.
but for my personal taste, seperate was better.
For my HT I run an Onkyo TX-DS787 which is a THX Select Cert
7.1 Receiver that puts out 100w RMS x 6Ch @8Ohm and 110W x
6Ch @6Ohm (this was made well before the recent bunch of stuff
from Onk that does not measure with all channels driven at thier
rated output. The 787 was only second to the Flagship 989 when
I picked it up) even with the amount of power that it puts out I
still run an Onkyo M282B 2 Ch Power Amp to feed my mains when
running HT (Use the Reciever to power the Bookshelf Surrounds
and the large Center).
For Music I run a Parasound Halo P3 into a pair of 20W Push/Pull
ASL Wave20 Monoblock Tubes. Completely seperate systems for
completely seperate tasks. I am not into "multichannel" music.
I have listened to some regular multichannel stuff but I have not
heard a proper SACD setup yet and most likely won't. Buying a
music collection all over again is pointless to me and I guess I
sort of see Bill's argument here.
It does seem like they want to generate sales, create a new
format and everyone will want it and they will buy our wares all
over again (for the third or more time..) well, I will not.
I love the way my 2Ch sounds and when my 7.5' tall Line Array's
are done it will only get much better.. I am not delving into SACD
or DVD-A as interesting as the concepts are and the masterering
may be of a higher quality but I can not bring myself to do it all
over again.
So Bill I do see you and Brett's point...
Brett,
As far as a night at the movies is concerned. Where I live the
price of admission per person is $6.50 US each person plus
anything else. For two people this outing (plus dinner) can and
will cost well into the $50.00 US or more dollar range. And if you
enjoy that, then certainly more power to you. But I do not enjoy
the utter distraction and obnoxiousness found at most theaters.
For me the only reason I ever went was for the "big screen" well
I have one at home and better sound than the local theaters plus
when I want to smoke I can just pause the DVD go outside and
have my nicotene fit and come back in and never miss a beat. Not
to mention the couch is very conducive to sleeping 🙂
In the end it all comes down to what we each enjoy. I have spent
much time and some money to turn my living room into a mini
theater that sounds great, looks great and causes friends jaws
to drop! And when I am done watching a movie I can flip right
over to 2Ch and dim the lights and relax 🙂
Hi all,
I just checked and the Tannoy Proto-J's are not available outside of North America. Sorry for any inconvenience.
I have no equivalents for the same price. When I bought mine, I was testing passive monitors up to 5 times the price and these were a bargain gem. The closest in price/performance was bottom line Paradigm and B&W. Paradigm costs about the same (slightly more) but not as good. B&W just as good, but 3 x $$$.
🙂ensen.
I just checked and the Tannoy Proto-J's are not available outside of North America. Sorry for any inconvenience.
I have no equivalents for the same price. When I bought mine, I was testing passive monitors up to 5 times the price and these were a bargain gem. The closest in price/performance was bottom line Paradigm and B&W. Paradigm costs about the same (slightly more) but not as good. B&W just as good, but 3 x $$$.
🙂ensen.
Ensen,
Remember one caveat that is "to your ears" because lord knows
some people even like the way the Bose Acoustimass sounds...
*shakes head* 🙄
I bet your setup does sound fantastic though. I think if I was to
redo my setup now I would go with 7 Mackie active Monitors
and an AVM-20 or SoundStage to do all the switching.. I really
like the idea of using the same Monitors the Pro's use plus they
have a nice ruler flat FR (anechoic of course) but that already puts
them ahead of most speakers though.. In a good treated room
they will work great.
But my HT is more than adequate to reproduce the levels and
quality of sound I need... 2Ch is where I am at now and I can't
get my head out of it 🙂
Remember one caveat that is "to your ears" because lord knows
some people even like the way the Bose Acoustimass sounds...
*shakes head* 🙄
I bet your setup does sound fantastic though. I think if I was to
redo my setup now I would go with 7 Mackie active Monitors
and an AVM-20 or SoundStage to do all the switching.. I really
like the idea of using the same Monitors the Pro's use plus they
have a nice ruler flat FR (anechoic of course) but that already puts
them ahead of most speakers though.. In a good treated room
they will work great.
But my HT is more than adequate to reproduce the levels and
quality of sound I need... 2Ch is where I am at now and I can't
get my head out of it 🙂
Hi Brett D.
Actually, it is Jensen. I think your browser is displaying the emoticon instead of the ASCII characters colon - right parathensis - ensen. Took me awhile to think it up, but it's very me and very web.
Ah yes, the Mackies. 824, 624 and 626. Wonderful sounding. Smooth and unbelievable bass. For me, the price is stratospheric. Almost C$6000 for 5 x 624s. At least you also get amps. Your systems are already out of my league, which is probably why you don't find any local theatres with better sound. And I see that you are running 5.0. Have you thought about using your arrays as the mains?
It is true that THX has variations. In a commercial set-up it is in a different league that residential grade THX, and even then, there are different brands, models and even a bit of tolerance in the specs. Suffice to say that many THX-certified theatres do not use THX components. Like Bryston, which I think are better than Krell and for less money. Interesting that Skywalker chose Brystons even though they are not rated. They use Blue Sky monitors in most of their small control rooms.
I started late with the 5.1 and I didn't even get into 2-ch until about 3 years ago when I added the Tannoys to the Marantz I inherited from my grandfather. It's still hard to believe I've "demoted" the Tannoys to the surrounds. They are pretty good, a little bright, but not much. Excellent highs make excellent surrounds.
For the mains, I've "settled" for the Yorkvilles, if you can all it settling. Also active. Not as smooth or as much bass as Mackie, but pretty clean and transparent enough that I don't notice them playing. Even in my horrible room with hardwood floors and non-ideal wall reflections, they sound great. I think brains can learn to compensate for highly reflective rooms.
You are right about using what the pros use, hence my choice towards studio monitors. I will put my Yorkvilles up against any of the so-called reference speakers any day. I can't guarantee they will make the music sound good, but I know they will tell me the truth. And if we got into a bang for buck argument, I'd definitely be smiling since the YSMs are already cheaper than the passive reference units.
BTW, I checked the service manual and they run an LM3886 for each driver. More complex filters and feedback loops than GC but same the heartbeat so I guess I can't be doing too badly in the amp dept, eh?
The weak link is the Teac 2A mixer. I think it has op-amps so I will probably hot-rod it one day when I can look inside. I'm still looking for a 6-buss for the day when I add a sub and centre.
IME, SACD is just a little more smooth overall than 16/44. Bass is fuller and there seems to be more "environment" but I have to say that I only hear it when no other sounds are around. No traffic, no fans, no rain, etc. I don't think I'll ever have a system (including my own physiology) that could properly resolve it. So, of course, SACD-multi didn't show up at all. I'd love to get into an SACD mastering studio just to hear what they hear in the DSD signal.
🙂ensen.
Actually, it is Jensen. I think your browser is displaying the emoticon instead of the ASCII characters colon - right parathensis - ensen. Took me awhile to think it up, but it's very me and very web.
Ah yes, the Mackies. 824, 624 and 626. Wonderful sounding. Smooth and unbelievable bass. For me, the price is stratospheric. Almost C$6000 for 5 x 624s. At least you also get amps. Your systems are already out of my league, which is probably why you don't find any local theatres with better sound. And I see that you are running 5.0. Have you thought about using your arrays as the mains?
It is true that THX has variations. In a commercial set-up it is in a different league that residential grade THX, and even then, there are different brands, models and even a bit of tolerance in the specs. Suffice to say that many THX-certified theatres do not use THX components. Like Bryston, which I think are better than Krell and for less money. Interesting that Skywalker chose Brystons even though they are not rated. They use Blue Sky monitors in most of their small control rooms.
I started late with the 5.1 and I didn't even get into 2-ch until about 3 years ago when I added the Tannoys to the Marantz I inherited from my grandfather. It's still hard to believe I've "demoted" the Tannoys to the surrounds. They are pretty good, a little bright, but not much. Excellent highs make excellent surrounds.
For the mains, I've "settled" for the Yorkvilles, if you can all it settling. Also active. Not as smooth or as much bass as Mackie, but pretty clean and transparent enough that I don't notice them playing. Even in my horrible room with hardwood floors and non-ideal wall reflections, they sound great. I think brains can learn to compensate for highly reflective rooms.
You are right about using what the pros use, hence my choice towards studio monitors. I will put my Yorkvilles up against any of the so-called reference speakers any day. I can't guarantee they will make the music sound good, but I know they will tell me the truth. And if we got into a bang for buck argument, I'd definitely be smiling since the YSMs are already cheaper than the passive reference units.
BTW, I checked the service manual and they run an LM3886 for each driver. More complex filters and feedback loops than GC but same the heartbeat so I guess I can't be doing too badly in the amp dept, eh?
The weak link is the Teac 2A mixer. I think it has op-amps so I will probably hot-rod it one day when I can look inside. I'm still looking for a 6-buss for the day when I add a sub and centre.
IME, SACD is just a little more smooth overall than 16/44. Bass is fuller and there seems to be more "environment" but I have to say that I only hear it when no other sounds are around. No traffic, no fans, no rain, etc. I don't think I'll ever have a system (including my own physiology) that could properly resolve it. So, of course, SACD-multi didn't show up at all. I'd love to get into an SACD mastering studio just to hear what they hear in the DSD signal.
🙂ensen.
Ensen, thatnks for taking the time to post the history and an overview of the technicalities, your kindness is appreciated, but I already knew them, and they are really moot to the points I was trying to make.
The point of having good audio in the first place is to encourage a suspension of disbeleif in the situation you are viewing on screen, so that you are more easily able to become enveloped in the unfolding drama. Using cheap small speakers, will not do that even in 10 channels, simply because they are not capable of satisfactory dynamic range or lack of colouration and distortion, so constantly draw attention to themselves. The polar patterns need to match on all 5 units need to match for example, and they will need to be positioned with care or you end up with a soup of sound that I find annoying. You also do need quite a deep bass response to get accurate localisation.
And playing them through the utterly crap amplifiers present in receivers won't help the situation.
Correct set up is a given and there are so many variables here, I'll not comment further at the moment. But let's say I'm experienced enough at doing it.
Given a fixed, presumably modest budget, and a desire to get the best out of watching movies as well as listening to stereo in one system, spending on a set of poor amplifiers, decoding and 3 extra speakers, will severely compromise what can be acheived in 2ch for the same expenditure. Yet, I have never found in my experience that really good 2ch was an impediment to the suspension of disbeleif when playing movies, unless you simply want the gee-whizz stuff, or watch noting but Die Hard type flix.
If HT is the priority, go for it, set it up multichannel, but you will lose out a lot in 2ch. Cost no object and custom theatre room installations are excluded from my comments.
Brett D: we obviously have contrasting views on the cinema experience, so let's simply agree to disagree.
The point of having good audio in the first place is to encourage a suspension of disbeleif in the situation you are viewing on screen, so that you are more easily able to become enveloped in the unfolding drama. Using cheap small speakers, will not do that even in 10 channels, simply because they are not capable of satisfactory dynamic range or lack of colouration and distortion, so constantly draw attention to themselves. The polar patterns need to match on all 5 units need to match for example, and they will need to be positioned with care or you end up with a soup of sound that I find annoying. You also do need quite a deep bass response to get accurate localisation.
And playing them through the utterly crap amplifiers present in receivers won't help the situation.
Correct set up is a given and there are so many variables here, I'll not comment further at the moment. But let's say I'm experienced enough at doing it.
Given a fixed, presumably modest budget, and a desire to get the best out of watching movies as well as listening to stereo in one system, spending on a set of poor amplifiers, decoding and 3 extra speakers, will severely compromise what can be acheived in 2ch for the same expenditure. Yet, I have never found in my experience that really good 2ch was an impediment to the suspension of disbeleif when playing movies, unless you simply want the gee-whizz stuff, or watch noting but Die Hard type flix.
If HT is the priority, go for it, set it up multichannel, but you will lose out a lot in 2ch. Cost no object and custom theatre room installations are excluded from my comments.
Brett D: we obviously have contrasting views on the cinema experience, so let's simply agree to disagree.
Jensen,
Sorry about that, yes it shows the Emitocon and then Ensen 🙂
There are certainly bargains in audio and it takes some searching
to find them. And even then some people will never give those
brands the time of day because they believe that $$ = Good
Sound. I of course do not agree with that in the least. I think you
can throw money into audio hand over fist and still have a poor
sounding system simply because of the room and the setup and
implimentation of the system. I am constantly moving things and
trying different ways to cancel reflections here and there and
messing with positioning to find the best that works in my room.
I do run 5.1 and have the ability to do up to 7.1 with my current
processor and amplifiers. I just don't have the room for another
pair of surrounds on the walls. My mains are full range units that
the LF tuning is 32Hz they have been tested by Tom Nousainne(Sp)
And acheived 100Db @32Hz they run HiVi Research Magnesium
Mids and a Titanium Tweeter in a D'Appolito arangement. The
Center runs the same identical drivers, though in a horizontal
array. I always hear "audiophiles" talking about how compressed
and un natural horizontal M-T-M's sound.. And how they can pick
out this or that.. Well gee I guess I am not an audiophile then
because the center does what it is suposed to do.. If your center
channel is transparent then you have a problem. A centers job is
to anchor dialogue to the screen, not above the screen or below
the screen or to the sides of the screen. My center does it's job
without any problems.
As far as setup, I see too many people run Horizontal M-T-M's on
top of thier TV's pushed way back... Those are simply people who
don't care about proper setup. I run my center slightly overhung
on the top of the TV the baffel hangs over the edge and the
center's mids and tweeter are aimed at the listening position with
a laser (same for the mains) because of this I get a seamless
front pan from Left to Right and dialogue is on screen where it
belongs.
For movies the system sounds absolutely fantastic and better
than some other people I know with HT's.. Of course I have also heard far better than my setup but at more than 3X the cost of
my setup.
Brett,
We obviously have largely contrasting views on both HT and 2Ch
because I simply don't agree with anything you have stated. But
it's a huge world out there and there is room for both of us to
have our own opinions and yet have a civilized discussion as we
are right??? I mean this is a discussion forum, after all.
Small speakers can work well given the room dimensions are
small. If a small speaker is well designed and can integrate with a
good sub woofer then the setup will work and will be decent to
listen to. Will it be the best? No, small speakers never will be...
But sometimes it's a comprimise and for the general consumer
who has WAF to deal with I guess every decision made is nothing
but a comprimise 🙂 Fortunatly I have no W therfore no WAF and
that won't change any time in the near future.
I plan on replacing all my "OEM" speakers with custom built line
arrays. Right now I am waiting for the crossover design to be
finalized on the 88" tall LA's that will be my mains. There will also
be matching surrounds and a center in the near future. Dynamics
won't be a problem running 24 7" Midranges just on the front
two channels and stereobass from dual sealed 12's. Hey one of
those crappy receivers would probably even power them! But
that's not going to happen 🙂
I think my next amp purchase will either be Aragon Paladium 1K's
or something from Pass Labs. I know the Pass stuff is dynamite
but it is a fair amount more pricey than the Aragon's so I may just
go with the Paladiums.. That's next years upgrade 🙂 Of course I
will keep the tubes for when I really want colored sound!
As far as the suspension of disbelief.. It takes more than sound
it's also the screen and your own frame of mind.. People can get
absorbed into a movie on TV not even in surround sound.. The
mind is a fickle thing.. It doesn't even take high fidelity to get
completely absorbed into something. But it certainly adds to the
experiance to have great sound and sights.. I get so into
watching movies that I jump when something happens on screen
so I suppose it's working for me.. Sorry you don't get the same
milage out of surround setups. To each his or her own 😉
This is a really great thread.. I am enjoying reading about both
sides of the fence. Keep them comming!
Sorry about that, yes it shows the Emitocon and then Ensen 🙂
There are certainly bargains in audio and it takes some searching
to find them. And even then some people will never give those
brands the time of day because they believe that $$ = Good
Sound. I of course do not agree with that in the least. I think you
can throw money into audio hand over fist and still have a poor
sounding system simply because of the room and the setup and
implimentation of the system. I am constantly moving things and
trying different ways to cancel reflections here and there and
messing with positioning to find the best that works in my room.
I do run 5.1 and have the ability to do up to 7.1 with my current
processor and amplifiers. I just don't have the room for another
pair of surrounds on the walls. My mains are full range units that
the LF tuning is 32Hz they have been tested by Tom Nousainne(Sp)
And acheived 100Db @32Hz they run HiVi Research Magnesium
Mids and a Titanium Tweeter in a D'Appolito arangement. The
Center runs the same identical drivers, though in a horizontal
array. I always hear "audiophiles" talking about how compressed
and un natural horizontal M-T-M's sound.. And how they can pick
out this or that.. Well gee I guess I am not an audiophile then
because the center does what it is suposed to do.. If your center
channel is transparent then you have a problem. A centers job is
to anchor dialogue to the screen, not above the screen or below
the screen or to the sides of the screen. My center does it's job
without any problems.
As far as setup, I see too many people run Horizontal M-T-M's on
top of thier TV's pushed way back... Those are simply people who
don't care about proper setup. I run my center slightly overhung
on the top of the TV the baffel hangs over the edge and the
center's mids and tweeter are aimed at the listening position with
a laser (same for the mains) because of this I get a seamless
front pan from Left to Right and dialogue is on screen where it
belongs.
For movies the system sounds absolutely fantastic and better
than some other people I know with HT's.. Of course I have also heard far better than my setup but at more than 3X the cost of
my setup.
Brett,
We obviously have largely contrasting views on both HT and 2Ch
because I simply don't agree with anything you have stated. But
it's a huge world out there and there is room for both of us to
have our own opinions and yet have a civilized discussion as we
are right??? I mean this is a discussion forum, after all.
Small speakers can work well given the room dimensions are
small. If a small speaker is well designed and can integrate with a
good sub woofer then the setup will work and will be decent to
listen to. Will it be the best? No, small speakers never will be...
But sometimes it's a comprimise and for the general consumer
who has WAF to deal with I guess every decision made is nothing
but a comprimise 🙂 Fortunatly I have no W therfore no WAF and
that won't change any time in the near future.
I plan on replacing all my "OEM" speakers with custom built line
arrays. Right now I am waiting for the crossover design to be
finalized on the 88" tall LA's that will be my mains. There will also
be matching surrounds and a center in the near future. Dynamics
won't be a problem running 24 7" Midranges just on the front
two channels and stereobass from dual sealed 12's. Hey one of
those crappy receivers would probably even power them! But
that's not going to happen 🙂
I think my next amp purchase will either be Aragon Paladium 1K's
or something from Pass Labs. I know the Pass stuff is dynamite
but it is a fair amount more pricey than the Aragon's so I may just
go with the Paladiums.. That's next years upgrade 🙂 Of course I
will keep the tubes for when I really want colored sound!
As far as the suspension of disbelief.. It takes more than sound
it's also the screen and your own frame of mind.. People can get
absorbed into a movie on TV not even in surround sound.. The
mind is a fickle thing.. It doesn't even take high fidelity to get
completely absorbed into something. But it certainly adds to the
experiance to have great sound and sights.. I get so into
watching movies that I jump when something happens on screen
so I suppose it's working for me.. Sorry you don't get the same
milage out of surround setups. To each his or her own 😉
This is a really great thread.. I am enjoying reading about both
sides of the fence. Keep them comming!
purplepeople said:
I am set up for 5.1. I run LR mains, sub directed to the mains, virtual centre & surrounds. The LR outs from the processor go into the AUX of my stereo pre, allowing the 2 channel to be at arms length from the HT.
Boy would i ever like to see and hear an actual HD3D theatre. 1st re-funding needs to happen & we have to build it -- it has been a long hard slog with many a hiatus. Sound in an HD3D theatre is intended to go far beyond THX (and probably will not meet the letter of the spec, because it is too limiting).
I have been to quite a few IMAX including the showcase Sony theatre in NY, NY. The tech is inherently flawed and many a theatre scrimps on sound. They shouldn't be anyone's reference -- better can be achieved.
THX is just a minimum standard and has gone a long ways to standardizing theatre sound and dragging a lot of them up, but it is more like the FTCs RMS power ratings in terms of standards -- sets a baseline.
dave
PS. Brett, your local theatre sounds idyllic... when i get to Oz, it will be my treat -- you just keep working on them to get that hifi sound system installed 🙂
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