Hello everyone! My first real post so I hope I have the right forum category for my questions since my main thoughts are to a multi-way speaker design. I have read many other posts and websites but for reasons I state later I have hit a wall as to what to do next.
Here goes. I have a large open area that serves as a living space, sitting room w/fireplace and a kitchen/dining room. I am going to attempt an Ansi drawing to show it to you, but no guarantees it work. The main area (Living/Sitting area) is 16.5ft x 35ft with an adjoining area (Kitchen/Dining) of approx. 11.5ft x 18ft with 8ft ceilings. Ugly (see below).
I watch movies mostly and I really love my movies. I haven't found a receiver I like yet and have considered building something if I can't find a system for decoding the usual theater audio (DD, DTS, etc). For music I generally use my computer and headphones. When I have time I have a design from Planet10 hifi I want to build for that application.
I'm already equipped with some amps I bought at a flea market in St. Louis. (4) QSC USA 900 amps and one QSC 1400 amp. I'll run separate outlets and breaker for these. The rooms design is below.
I have considered many speaker designs and just do not know which direction to go. I have looked and like the Planet10 Hi-Fi Curvy Changs, the Ariels/ME2's, Statements & Mini Statements along with several others. Quite honestly I have little experience with much beyond the crap you get at box stores. What little experience I have with better designs is limited ( I have a pair of BA T-930's as mains now).
I have a mismatched group of speakers laying about I thought about using, but don't know enough about them to consider using them. I'll break it down:
(1) pair of Boston Acoustics T-930's
(1) pair each Bose (ugh) 201's (series iv) & 301's (series iii)
(1) old pair of Domus mains (wow, heavy with 15's)
(1) junk pair of Pioneer s-h452f-k
(1) JBL n-center,
(3) Optimus Pro LX4
(2) Lenaeum tweeters (I may have 3, but I have to look)
(1) RCA Pro SW-120p sub
(1) Polk Audio RM6200/RM6600 sub (no specific model number)
(2) JBL 2242HPL sub drivers (one needs a new cone)
I don't have more than $150 in the whole set of speakers. I like the T-930's but can't seem to find a placement to give a very wide image. Most of the others I have because they were very cheap to buy. What wasn't bought was given to me.
If these speakers can be cannibalized and used that would be great. If not I have a budget of about $500-$800 US to buy more. I can go more if I need to but I have a 'honey please don't beat me' factor to be concerned with. She is still upset about the 9 second Mercury Comet I bought last year. 🙂 Oh, and the '67 truck and the '84 diesel Mercedes 300d....
The dog house now has a refrigerator and stove.
The number of design options (OB, Omni, full-range, etc.), speaker design choices (Chang, Statement, etc.) as well as the hardly touch crossover considerations for each system is making the whole thing get cloudy and muddled when viewed with the room I have to work with. At this point I could really use the advice of the people from this board.
Here goes. I have a large open area that serves as a living space, sitting room w/fireplace and a kitchen/dining room. I am going to attempt an Ansi drawing to show it to you, but no guarantees it work. The main area (Living/Sitting area) is 16.5ft x 35ft with an adjoining area (Kitchen/Dining) of approx. 11.5ft x 18ft with 8ft ceilings. Ugly (see below).
I watch movies mostly and I really love my movies. I haven't found a receiver I like yet and have considered building something if I can't find a system for decoding the usual theater audio (DD, DTS, etc). For music I generally use my computer and headphones. When I have time I have a design from Planet10 hifi I want to build for that application.
I'm already equipped with some amps I bought at a flea market in St. Louis. (4) QSC USA 900 amps and one QSC 1400 amp. I'll run separate outlets and breaker for these. The rooms design is below.
Code:
xxxxxxxxxxxxx-----xxxxx------x
xxxxxxxxxxxx x
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxx
x / x
x Tele/Living \ x
x Room x
: / x
: \ x
: xxxx
x x
: x
: x
: x x = Wall
x x : = Window
x x | = Door
x | ---- = Door
x |
x |
| x
| x
| x
| x
| xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
x x x
x x x
x x x
x x
x x
x x
x x
x x
x x
: Kitchen/ x
: Dining Room x
: x
x Sitting Room x
: x
: |
: |
x |
x -
x |
x |
x |
x x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.......x.......xxxI have considered many speaker designs and just do not know which direction to go. I have looked and like the Planet10 Hi-Fi Curvy Changs, the Ariels/ME2's, Statements & Mini Statements along with several others. Quite honestly I have little experience with much beyond the crap you get at box stores. What little experience I have with better designs is limited ( I have a pair of BA T-930's as mains now).
I have a mismatched group of speakers laying about I thought about using, but don't know enough about them to consider using them. I'll break it down:
(1) pair of Boston Acoustics T-930's
(1) pair each Bose (ugh) 201's (series iv) & 301's (series iii)
(1) old pair of Domus mains (wow, heavy with 15's)
(1) junk pair of Pioneer s-h452f-k
(1) JBL n-center,
(3) Optimus Pro LX4
(2) Lenaeum tweeters (I may have 3, but I have to look)
(1) RCA Pro SW-120p sub
(1) Polk Audio RM6200/RM6600 sub (no specific model number)
(2) JBL 2242HPL sub drivers (one needs a new cone)
I don't have more than $150 in the whole set of speakers. I like the T-930's but can't seem to find a placement to give a very wide image. Most of the others I have because they were very cheap to buy. What wasn't bought was given to me.
If these speakers can be cannibalized and used that would be great. If not I have a budget of about $500-$800 US to buy more. I can go more if I need to but I have a 'honey please don't beat me' factor to be concerned with. She is still upset about the 9 second Mercury Comet I bought last year. 🙂 Oh, and the '67 truck and the '84 diesel Mercedes 300d....
The dog house now has a refrigerator and stove.
The number of design options (OB, Omni, full-range, etc.), speaker design choices (Chang, Statement, etc.) as well as the hardly touch crossover considerations for each system is making the whole thing get cloudy and muddled when viewed with the room I have to work with. At this point I could really use the advice of the people from this board.
..that's quite a bit different, and it sounds as if it will keep you in the doghouse longer. 😀
If you want out of the doghouse I'd recommend Brandon's HT solution here:
Can you smell what Brando's cooking!? - AVS Forum
-coupled with your subs randomly distributed around the room in as "hidden" a manner as possible (..which I like to think of as the Geddes technique.)
(Note that the satellites had a version for in-wall use as well - which might be something your spouse can "get on board" with.)
Interesting, ScottG. I am trying to get through the thread but with my slow connection it takes forever.
I was hoping for a more 'interesting' design like some of the Planet10 hifi speakers. Those tall curvy Changs are just cool to look at, but I fear they may not have the output for what I have to deal with. Then there are the Humble Homemade HiFi designs that seem to use outrageously expensive drivers. Many of which I couldn't find in the U.S. for under the price of child-birthing twins.
Besides, that JBL sub would probably give the entire system a tough time to overcome so whatever I build better have excellent output. Here are the specs for it Parts Express:
For the JBL sub I thought about Bill Fitzmaurice's Tuba HT, but that seems like overkill and extremely large. Still, it's an 18" sub and you can't expect to build a cabinet the size of a carry-on suitcase. Perhaps I could sell the second one and use that money to build a better system! 🙂 <insert little girl giggle>
There are just too many choices.
I was hoping for a more 'interesting' design like some of the Planet10 hifi speakers. Those tall curvy Changs are just cool to look at, but I fear they may not have the output for what I have to deal with. Then there are the Humble Homemade HiFi designs that seem to use outrageously expensive drivers. Many of which I couldn't find in the U.S. for under the price of child-birthing twins.
Besides, that JBL sub would probably give the entire system a tough time to overcome so whatever I build better have excellent output. Here are the specs for it Parts Express:
For the JBL sub I thought about Bill Fitzmaurice's Tuba HT, but that seems like overkill and extremely large. Still, it's an 18" sub and you can't expect to build a cabinet the size of a carry-on suitcase. Perhaps I could sell the second one and use that money to build a better system! 🙂 <insert little girl giggle>
There are just too many choices.
Ah, something a bit more exotic eh? 🙂
You could still do the Curvy Changs.. if with a different driver (perhaps the FF225WK), but the problem is with changes in freq.s response at different listening angles - which isn't exactly ideal for HT. It also isn't a type of design I'd recommend with a high power amplifier (..perhaps DIY'ing a First Watt design for use with it instead).
A well documented design I always seem to recommend are Troel's PMS. Good dispersion pattern there, so it could be used for HT- and the drivers on that design aren't pricey affairs (though not exactly cheap either). 3 loudspeakers would do it (for left, center, and right), and you could use your bose loudspeakers for the surrounds. Who knows, a certain other party might even like the looks..
Though less exotic in looks, the ELSINORE is a rather excellent design as well (..and in Mk5 version is reasonably exotic - at least with respect to the engineering that's gone into them).
If you want something substantially more exotic, AND you had the ability to equalize each channel.. Then perhaps look into an "exciter" solution for your "satellites" and concentrate a little more on the rather wide-band "subs" that would be required to accompany them.
YouTube - home made speakers using Dayton Sound Exciters
This Elsinore speaker specs out incredibly well. I wouldn't necessary need a sub at all. I've actually been quite fine without a sub with my T-930's and they don't perform anything like the Elsinore shows.
I've actually given some thought to selling my amps and JBL's and building smaller amps (never did that before) and decent efficient speakers. I still have an isobaric car sub I have thought I could always cannibalize should I need to build a speaker for dedicated for that purpose.
The Elsinore's seem to fit into that $500-$800 price category rather nicely too. 🙂 Ah.... still so many choices...
I've actually given some thought to selling my amps and JBL's and building smaller amps (never did that before) and decent efficient speakers. I still have an isobaric car sub I have thought I could always cannibalize should I need to build a speaker for dedicated for that purpose.
The Elsinore's seem to fit into that $500-$800 price category rather nicely too. 🙂 Ah.... still so many choices...
1: You won't build a decoder without licensed parts which are unobtanium, except for an HTPC.
2: Ariels whilst nice will not cut it (I've owned them, still have a spare set of drivers)
3: Look at the Pi4 from pispeakers.com. Read Wayne's article: http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
4: Look at the Ewave thread on AudioKarma for design ideas or Flex Your PCD MEttle from TechTalk. Brandon's No Quarters also look excellent and the WG is available again from Parts Express.
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Flex Your PCD Mettle: - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
5: Re subs 2242 are good PA and even 2ch subs, but will not really cut it for LFE which will go a lot lower than they will not cut it. Again, I own some.
6: For a large room and wanting anything like reference levels, FR drivers are a waste of effort.
Finlly, HT seems almost an anathema here, so AVS DIY Speakers is really a better place to ask for info.
DIY Speakers and Subs - AVS Forum
2: Ariels whilst nice will not cut it (I've owned them, still have a spare set of drivers)
3: Look at the Pi4 from pispeakers.com. Read Wayne's article: http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
4: Look at the Ewave thread on AudioKarma for design ideas or Flex Your PCD MEttle from TechTalk. Brandon's No Quarters also look excellent and the WG is available again from Parts Express.
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Flex Your PCD Mettle: - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
5: Re subs 2242 are good PA and even 2ch subs, but will not really cut it for LFE which will go a lot lower than they will not cut it. Again, I own some.
6: For a large room and wanting anything like reference levels, FR drivers are a waste of effort.
Finlly, HT seems almost an anathema here, so AVS DIY Speakers is really a better place to ask for info.
DIY Speakers and Subs - AVS Forum
Hi,
Despite my somewhat pessimistic views about what drivers can be made to do, I turned up to a meet (in a large-ish room) with the system linked in my signature. Note the use of relatively small Fostex drivers. I then played Tracks 3-5 of The Wall (disc 1) by Pink Floyd, loud. Now, this wasn't the sort of loud that fell off after a couple of metres. It was loud enough at the other end of the room.
Following this, I'd expect the larger horns mentioned to cope fine, especially if they were to be crossed over to a capable subwoofer.
If you want really loud levels, (as in hearing damage levels) then the projects linked above will work well.
Despite my somewhat pessimistic views about what drivers can be made to do, I turned up to a meet (in a large-ish room) with the system linked in my signature. Note the use of relatively small Fostex drivers. I then played Tracks 3-5 of The Wall (disc 1) by Pink Floyd, loud. Now, this wasn't the sort of loud that fell off after a couple of metres. It was loud enough at the other end of the room.
Following this, I'd expect the larger horns mentioned to cope fine, especially if they were to be crossed over to a capable subwoofer.
If you want really loud levels, (as in hearing damage levels) then the projects linked above will work well.
Most of these designs I haven't heard before.. including the PMS and the Elsinore. On the other hand I am reasonably well aware of the objective performance (when compared to other designs), and I also look at the subjective comments by builder*s*. For instance a variation on the PMS can be found here:
DIY archive of Kimmo Saunisto
Kimmo is *also* a very experienced designer/builder. Try reading the subjective comments of this design in relation to most of the others he has posted.
There are of course also the descriptions by builders on Troel's site as well.
I have heard the Sonus Faber Elipse, though it was with unfamiliar equipment. Very "panel-like" IMO, but a bit "strident" in it's upper freq. response (..if I remember correctly).
Thank you very much, Brett and Chris661. This should keep me busy for some time.
Chris, I am not really concerned with loud as much as clarity. I mostly watch movies alone and don't sit very far from the source. The real concern is effortless rendering from very dynamic media. Interesting system you have. I'll check it out and thank you for the information.
Brett,
I wonder about the 2242's not being capable. These were being used in a theater that was closed down (end of lease) which is how I was able to get them. I watched a few action movies like Batman Returns, Transformers (ugh), 16 Blocks just to name a few and they hit pretty hard and deep there. More than enough to fill the large auditorium. I watch a lot of movies at the local theatre where I live now and they use the same sub in many of the larger auditoriums. Perhaps it is the box design, but they sound just as tight and deep as in the theater that closed down.
In the end I have to weed through comments, personal opinion and decipher measurement data to figure out which one would do the job. With so many designs they all began to blend together and I just could no longer focus on my goal. That is how I finally posted my forum question since I have little to no personal experience with this stuff.
I am going to go through all the posted links and gather more information for my spreadsheet. There is a new goal of 2 weeks to decide on what will be built and start buying the parts. If I wait too long it will get lost in the myriad other projects and work that has to be done that isn't fun.
Thank you again, everyone, for the advice so far.
Richard
Chris, I am not really concerned with loud as much as clarity. I mostly watch movies alone and don't sit very far from the source. The real concern is effortless rendering from very dynamic media. Interesting system you have. I'll check it out and thank you for the information.
Brett,
I wonder about the 2242's not being capable. These were being used in a theater that was closed down (end of lease) which is how I was able to get them. I watched a few action movies like Batman Returns, Transformers (ugh), 16 Blocks just to name a few and they hit pretty hard and deep there. More than enough to fill the large auditorium. I watch a lot of movies at the local theatre where I live now and they use the same sub in many of the larger auditoriums. Perhaps it is the box design, but they sound just as tight and deep as in the theater that closed down.
Yes, I felt as much as you stated, but with so many brilliant designs going on here I was hoping to find information that would point to a speaker that was not a victim of excessive complexity (too many drivers/multi-amped) but still had that sexy curb appeal. DIY Audio people seem to excel at this.
In the end I have to weed through comments, personal opinion and decipher measurement data to figure out which one would do the job. With so many designs they all began to blend together and I just could no longer focus on my goal. That is how I finally posted my forum question since I have little to no personal experience with this stuff.
I am going to go through all the posted links and gather more information for my spreadsheet. There is a new goal of 2 weeks to decide on what will be built and start buying the parts. If I wait too long it will get lost in the myriad other projects and work that has to be done that isn't fun.
Thank you again, everyone, for the advice so far.
Richard
They will be fine to 30Hz or so, but there is a ton of recorded LFE information below that - the LFE channel spec is 3-120hz. Commercial theatres have no ability to move that much air that low so don't even other. Dedicated high excursion LF drivers are the solution.
Movie LFE measurements
And that is why I love this forum. Thank you. 🙂 I'll just sell these and build something useful.
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