Hi,
Good imaging is one of those important but sometimes illusive qualities in a top system.
An effect I have noticed on several occasions and on different systems is this. Try a good radio broadcast for starters -- voice -- and kneel down a couple of feet in front of the speakers but facing away from them. The image although obviously behind you can be absolutely pin sharp. Now try it with a good CD, perhaps one with vocals. The image really does seem to have great "depth" , and the effect can be quite startling. Anyone ever noticed this.
Good imaging is one of those important but sometimes illusive qualities in a top system.
An effect I have noticed on several occasions and on different systems is this. Try a good radio broadcast for starters -- voice -- and kneel down a couple of feet in front of the speakers but facing away from them. The image although obviously behind you can be absolutely pin sharp. Now try it with a good CD, perhaps one with vocals. The image really does seem to have great "depth" , and the effect can be quite startling. Anyone ever noticed this.
try ambiophonics.
I got solid center (with non time aligned 3 ways) and wide stage.
http://www.ambiophonics.org/Figure4.htm
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/pol.bct/exemples/Ambio.htm
but I'm not too keen on a line of full range drivers unless they are focused at listening spot.
I do like the looks of these though.
http://www.atssounds.com/ImageGalle...15e-c9d581199ef5&prefix=Fullscreen&cache=True
Norman
I got solid center (with non time aligned 3 ways) and wide stage.
http://www.ambiophonics.org/Figure4.htm
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/pol.bct/exemples/Ambio.htm
but I'm not too keen on a line of full range drivers unless they are focused at listening spot.
I do like the looks of these though.
http://www.atssounds.com/ImageGalle...15e-c9d581199ef5&prefix=Fullscreen&cache=True
Norman
Many thanks for the links -- will have a good read 🙂
Just curious really, I am pleased with my set up in ordinary use, the imaging is excellent, but this effect I have noted ( over many years ) is just so striking. Didn't seem to matter whether it was with smallish speakers like the Celestion SL6 and SL100 or large floorstanders like the B&W703's the effect was the same.
Hi Lineup --- try it !
Just curious really, I am pleased with my set up in ordinary use, the imaging is excellent, but this effect I have noted ( over many years ) is just so striking. Didn't seem to matter whether it was with smallish speakers like the Celestion SL6 and SL100 or large floorstanders like the B&W703's the effect was the same.
Hi Lineup --- try it !
Well this might be actually a psychoacoustic effect from the early days of evolution: our hearing was made for survival and it was probably more important for the stone age people to accurately locate sounds coming from behind, where seeing did not help much !
I have also noticed this effect. I am wondering if there are any psycho acoustic studies on it - one could try to test it on real sounds as well (not coming from loudspeakers) to see if reproduces.
I have also noticed this effect. I am wondering if there are any psycho acoustic studies on it - one could try to test it on real sounds as well (not coming from loudspeakers) to see if reproduces.
Mooly,
is imaging better because you face away, or is it because you kneel down ? 😉
A part of the socalled listening fatigue comes from contradiction between visual and audio messages when listening to recorded sound. Your ears hear a concert hall, your eyes see your listening room, and your brain tries to picture something plausible from these two opposite informations.
I guess that long time listening to sounds coming from your back will disturb your brain too, as we inherited from early ages of mankind an alert system about sounds coming from behind that could come from a predator seeing you as his next meal ! We even can be disturbed if someone is looking at us in our back !
Personaly, I love mono (specialy when listening to radio) because you LISTEN to music and don't try to SEE it.
is imaging better because you face away, or is it because you kneel down ? 😉
A part of the socalled listening fatigue comes from contradiction between visual and audio messages when listening to recorded sound. Your ears hear a concert hall, your eyes see your listening room, and your brain tries to picture something plausible from these two opposite informations.
I guess that long time listening to sounds coming from your back will disturb your brain too, as we inherited from early ages of mankind an alert system about sounds coming from behind that could come from a predator seeing you as his next meal ! We even can be disturbed if someone is looking at us in our back !
Personaly, I love mono (specialy when listening to radio) because you LISTEN to music and don't try to SEE it.
Hello bzfcocon & Funambule,
Never thought of that, some Dinosaur wondering what's for it's tea
The effect does seem very real though, and yes height and head position do influence it greatly. So vivid is it that you can seemingly "locate" say a vocalist to within inches, there is no spread in the sound, it really is "perfect" presentation. It has real depth behind the speakers as well. As soon as you turn to face the speakers much of that absolute precision is lost, no matter where you listen.
I often listen eyes closed, and although my system images very well, it's a totally different kind of imaging if that make any sense to the effect described.
Will have to try it on real sounds -- that should get some funny looks 😉
Never thought of that, some Dinosaur wondering what's for it's tea
The effect does seem very real though, and yes height and head position do influence it greatly. So vivid is it that you can seemingly "locate" say a vocalist to within inches, there is no spread in the sound, it really is "perfect" presentation. It has real depth behind the speakers as well. As soon as you turn to face the speakers much of that absolute precision is lost, no matter where you listen.
I often listen eyes closed, and although my system images very well, it's a totally different kind of imaging if that make any sense to the effect described.
Will have to try it on real sounds -- that should get some funny looks 😉
Yes. In building several pairs of speakers, I have particularly noticed how the image varies with different crossovers. Even crossovers that look virtually identical in the simulator will produce images that vary in depth, width, and 3-dimensionality.
JJ
Evolutionary discord
Question about the "evolution" theory...
If we needed to properly locate things behind us, why are our ears cupped forward?
Would it not be a better assumption that the psycho-acoustic event is that our eyes are in front, requiring that we each develop a better idea of what is behind us.
The kid in the play yard who more quickly figures out his audible cues to a ensuing bully or tag opponent wins the game.
But, still along the lines that we are not letting our visual cues foul our audible ones.
Question about the "evolution" theory...
If we needed to properly locate things behind us, why are our ears cupped forward?
Would it not be a better assumption that the psycho-acoustic event is that our eyes are in front, requiring that we each develop a better idea of what is behind us.
The kid in the play yard who more quickly figures out his audible cues to a ensuing bully or tag opponent wins the game.
But, still along the lines that we are not letting our visual cues foul our audible ones.
Hi,
Another nice link -- thanks
Once had a listen to the Celestion SL6000 subwoofer system that was used to partner the original SL6/600-- shown on the stand. It certainly added that missing bottom octave.
Back to the image "thing". I suspect from what you guy's are saying it's probably a combination of several of the ideas and theories mentioned. I wonder if the effect would be similar if the speakers were taken out of the listening room and put in free space. All very interesting.
The last speakers I built ( My dad built with me 🙂 ) were some large floorstanders using Peerless 10 inch bass and matching mid and I think an Audax soft dome tweeter. From Badger Sound in the UK if anyone remembers them.
Another nice link -- thanks
gainphile said:
Once had a listen to the Celestion SL6000 subwoofer system that was used to partner the original SL6/600-- shown on the stand. It certainly added that missing bottom octave.
Back to the image "thing". I suspect from what you guy's are saying it's probably a combination of several of the ideas and theories mentioned. I wonder if the effect would be similar if the speakers were taken out of the listening room and put in free space. All very interesting.
The last speakers I built ( My dad built with me 🙂 ) were some large floorstanders using Peerless 10 inch bass and matching mid and I think an Audax soft dome tweeter. From Badger Sound in the UK if anyone remembers them.
Attachments
Hi croat47,
maybe it's just a question of paying attention (to the sound, in that case). Truly you're right, our audition system is "forward biased" and supposed to allow better localization of sounds coming from front and sides. But a sound coming from behind is setting our brain in alert mode, so we are more attentive to it.
What we hear is not what our ears perceive, but what is sorted from these perceptions, consciously or not.
Psychoacoustics is a very interesting domain, not very much discussed in forums where technique is dominant (as always).
maybe it's just a question of paying attention (to the sound, in that case). Truly you're right, our audition system is "forward biased" and supposed to allow better localization of sounds coming from front and sides. But a sound coming from behind is setting our brain in alert mode, so we are more attentive to it.
What we hear is not what our ears perceive, but what is sorted from these perceptions, consciously or not.
Psychoacoustics is a very interesting domain, not very much discussed in forums where technique is dominant (as always).
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