SY said:
A friend described it as "a pig eating soup".
It's definitely the pickup, by the way. I knew someone who stuck an EBO pickup on his Precision and ruined the sound.
A tip for p-bass players, if they have parametric equalizers: try a half-octave 6 dB dip around 200 Hz. It takes away some of the "headache midrange" and rounds out the bottom end nicely.
Maybe slightly OT but there are some wise players in this forum:
I've just got a Seymour Duncan MM alnico pup for a new bass (Warmoth, yum) and it has two coils, which can be wired in the following configurations:
1) Coil 1 only
2) Coil 2 only
3) Series
4) Parallel
Will there be any difference between 1 and 2? or are they so close that there's no difference?
Series vs. parallel: I know that series gives greater output, but apart from that how does the sound differ from parallel? Wiring in series puts inductance in series so that will reduce treble...is that the only reason for the 'thicker' sound? If so, surely there's not much point in using series wiring as it's easy to roll of treble elsewhere.
My proposed switching is one coil/parallel. I'm seeking opinions here, ie am I missing out by ignoring series wiring, or the differences between 1 and 2? Of course I could arrange a honking great 3P4W rotary switch for all four options but I'd rather just a 2 way mini toggle.
thanks!
I've just got a Seymour Duncan MM alnico pup for a new bass (Warmoth, yum) and it has two coils, which can be wired in the following configurations:
1) Coil 1 only
2) Coil 2 only
3) Series
4) Parallel
Will there be any difference between 1 and 2? or are they so close that there's no difference?
Series vs. parallel: I know that series gives greater output, but apart from that how does the sound differ from parallel? Wiring in series puts inductance in series so that will reduce treble...is that the only reason for the 'thicker' sound? If so, surely there's not much point in using series wiring as it's easy to roll of treble elsewhere.
My proposed switching is one coil/parallel. I'm seeking opinions here, ie am I missing out by ignoring series wiring, or the differences between 1 and 2? Of course I could arrange a honking great 3P4W rotary switch for all four options but I'd rather just a 2 way mini toggle.
thanks!
Parallel is the trad Stingray configuration.
Series will give more output than any other combination, and tends to emphasise the mids with less HF response.
Single coil is more Jazzlike, but the different winding config of an MM, and the placement of the pickup relative to the nut, means it'll be a bit more deep sounding, with the coil closest to the neck deeper than the other. However, I doubt you'll notice it on stage. Maybe not in the studio either depnding on lots of factors.
Check out the link in post 13 and read Ron's thread on MMs. In the J thread he messes with pickup placement of the Jazzes and doesn't hear any significant difference with moving 3/4" or so along the scale iirc.
I'd suggest a mini toggle on-on-on with a SC/Series/Parallel switching arrangement.
Attached is the Bartolini wiring diagram that shows how to wire it. You'll just need to transpose the SD colours. Wiring layouts 4 or 5.
You could always rout another MM nearer the neck and use a 5 position switch to get the options the Musicman do with the 4HH and 5HH Stingrays....
Series will give more output than any other combination, and tends to emphasise the mids with less HF response.
Single coil is more Jazzlike, but the different winding config of an MM, and the placement of the pickup relative to the nut, means it'll be a bit more deep sounding, with the coil closest to the neck deeper than the other. However, I doubt you'll notice it on stage. Maybe not in the studio either depnding on lots of factors.
Check out the link in post 13 and read Ron's thread on MMs. In the J thread he messes with pickup placement of the Jazzes and doesn't hear any significant difference with moving 3/4" or so along the scale iirc.
I'd suggest a mini toggle on-on-on with a SC/Series/Parallel switching arrangement.
Attached is the Bartolini wiring diagram that shows how to wire it. You'll just need to transpose the SD colours. Wiring layouts 4 or 5.
You could always rout another MM nearer the neck and use a 5 position switch to get the options the Musicman do with the 4HH and 5HH Stingrays....
Attachments
Brett said:
Thanks, Brett. All pretty much as I thought, and yes I will put another pickup near the neck if I have to.
It does still look like there's no advantage to series wiring though (output is not an issue); the difference in tone is due to the series inductance, so I could get the same effect with eq elsewhere. Single/parallel seems to be the way to go.
Anyway, I'll temporarily put a bunch of DIP switches in the cavity to hear all the options for myself before I do anything drastic. I might even get round to posting samples...
cheers
Chris
i've got an invention that i've used in every bass i've built. it can work better with active electronics, but works just fine without. it's a phase inversion knob for the neck pickup. full cw and the pickups are in phase, mid rotation and the neck pickup is out of circuit, and full ccw and the pickups are out of phase. and you can experiment with everything in between. it requires a dual 100k lin taper pot. the ends of the pots are wired in an X, the bridge pickup is wired across the ends of one of the pots, and the neck pickup is wired across the wipers. output is taken either across the neck pickup, or across the bridge pickup (your choice).....
Regarding the tone of the old Gibson EB series:
There were two primary factors for the lack of midrange and high end. First was the pickup, obviously. It was humbucking, with a tremendously high impedance--I seem to recall something like 11k resistance, coupled with quite a bit of inductance from all the windings. So what do you get when you put an inductor in series with the signal? A low pass filter. At the time, that deep thudding tone was quite popular, but fashions change and slap-and-pop players can't use that tone at all. It also tends to muddy the sound of faster, more advanced players (e.g. Billy Sheehan, Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarke, et. al.), so these days very few players use big, heavy humbuckers like the old Gibsons.
There are options, however. One is to carefully disconnect one coil, making it a single coil pickup. Both the resistance and inductance drop, and given that the old EB pickups had such a strong output, even half a pickup is still functional. Another possibility is to use the EB pickup in conjunction with another pickup. Proper matching (and placement in the body) can result in a very even, full tone. It still may not suit some playing styles, but it's a wonder if you get the right balance.
The other, more subtle, part of the EB series sound was Gibson's use of mahogany for the neck. Mahogany is a marvelous wood, beautiful to look at and relatively lightweight compared to some of the other woods commonly used in electric instruments, but it's also relatively soft. This lack of rigidity doesn't work well for basses, at least for current playing styles. If you take an old EB pickup and put it in a bass with, say, a laminated maple neck, you'll discover that it has more mids than you might have thought; still not much in the way of highs, though.
Jaco Pastorius was famous for saying that the tone was in your hands. But it helps if your hands are holding the right instrument for your playing style.
I wind my own pickups and build my own active tone circuits, so I rarely use passive pickups these days. Still, there's plenty of use for the old Gibsons...country, for instance, or blues. Yes, a lot of players lean towards something like a Fender Precision, but then they string it with flat wound strings and turn the tone control all the way down. It might not hurt someone who plays that sort of music to give an EB-0 a try.
Of course, unless they run across an instrument with the -L option, they're going to have to adjust to the 3/4 scale. Works well for women, though, or men with smaller hands. Or those who want to play chords and need to be able to cover multiple frets easily.
Oh, and one other thing. The huge output of the old EB pickups was very useful for overdriving the front end of certain amplifiers, giving a nice, fat, distorted tone that you can't quite duplicate with an onboard preamp. That might still have utility for some people.
Grey
There were two primary factors for the lack of midrange and high end. First was the pickup, obviously. It was humbucking, with a tremendously high impedance--I seem to recall something like 11k resistance, coupled with quite a bit of inductance from all the windings. So what do you get when you put an inductor in series with the signal? A low pass filter. At the time, that deep thudding tone was quite popular, but fashions change and slap-and-pop players can't use that tone at all. It also tends to muddy the sound of faster, more advanced players (e.g. Billy Sheehan, Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarke, et. al.), so these days very few players use big, heavy humbuckers like the old Gibsons.
There are options, however. One is to carefully disconnect one coil, making it a single coil pickup. Both the resistance and inductance drop, and given that the old EB pickups had such a strong output, even half a pickup is still functional. Another possibility is to use the EB pickup in conjunction with another pickup. Proper matching (and placement in the body) can result in a very even, full tone. It still may not suit some playing styles, but it's a wonder if you get the right balance.
The other, more subtle, part of the EB series sound was Gibson's use of mahogany for the neck. Mahogany is a marvelous wood, beautiful to look at and relatively lightweight compared to some of the other woods commonly used in electric instruments, but it's also relatively soft. This lack of rigidity doesn't work well for basses, at least for current playing styles. If you take an old EB pickup and put it in a bass with, say, a laminated maple neck, you'll discover that it has more mids than you might have thought; still not much in the way of highs, though.
Jaco Pastorius was famous for saying that the tone was in your hands. But it helps if your hands are holding the right instrument for your playing style.
I wind my own pickups and build my own active tone circuits, so I rarely use passive pickups these days. Still, there's plenty of use for the old Gibsons...country, for instance, or blues. Yes, a lot of players lean towards something like a Fender Precision, but then they string it with flat wound strings and turn the tone control all the way down. It might not hurt someone who plays that sort of music to give an EB-0 a try.
Of course, unless they run across an instrument with the -L option, they're going to have to adjust to the 3/4 scale. Works well for women, though, or men with smaller hands. Or those who want to play chords and need to be able to cover multiple frets easily.
Oh, and one other thing. The huge output of the old EB pickups was very useful for overdriving the front end of certain amplifiers, giving a nice, fat, distorted tone that you can't quite duplicate with an onboard preamp. That might still have utility for some people.
Grey
Whilst you are correct that the high LC&R of the EB0 pickups are responsible for a part of their tone, the position in the scale (ie between nut and fret) as well as the construction and materials of the pickup are also a significant part of it as is the aperture width of the pickup. Other pickups with similar L&R specs sound completely different, even in the same position.
As for Jaco's "the tone is in your hands' comment, it would be more appropriate to say feel instead of tone. I have >2 dozen basses, many very different and yet I sound like me on all of them, but the tone (sonic signature) of each instrument is different.
As for Jaco's "the tone is in your hands' comment, it would be more appropriate to say feel instead of tone. I have >2 dozen basses, many very different and yet I sound like me on all of them, but the tone (sonic signature) of each instrument is different.
One thing that may affect tone, especially with passive pickups is the instrument cable. The cable adds resistance to the circuit and can also change your tone. You may just need to get a new cable. If you do go out to buy a new cable, get the shortest one possible. For instance, don't get a 20 footer (6 meters) when you only need a 10 footer.
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