I had tried using inverters and big batteries to make my system sound better.
I sincerely think they did work initially but even the GIANDEL rated for 5000 watts inverter could not handle supplying a constant 500 watts total for four THF51 based amplifiers for the two hours I would usually listen. At the end they began to act strangely and make funny sounds so I returned to AC and continued to use the FO-FELIX filters that have been very popular for years in the GROUP BUYS section.
It was obvious that AC from the wall was superior. I do not doubt the inverters had a soft fail. No one wants to buy a new inverter every year.
The inverters produced a 22 kHz spike one could see with RTA - though I could not hear such a thing one has to figure it could produce problems at lower frequencies. I could never figure out if the noise emanated from the inverter or the AC wires coming out from it.
In December I took a look at AUDIO ASYLUM, which I do not do very often, and saw a post from a fellow talking about ground boxes and using Rochelle salt to control AC noise. I know the first time I saw an ENTREQ box I laughed as most did. I could never bring myself to pay that kind of money for a box with stuff in it but being a DIYer I would not mind building something and hearing it for myself.
The post directed me to HEAD FI and posts by cdacosta : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy-ground-box-thread.968372/
This begins with a basic guide to the ideas presented in the thread.
I bought the Rochelle salt in December and am just getting around to using it. It seemed simple to implement and it is simple to implement.
I have treated a bit over half of the switch plates and whatever you call the ones that cover receptacles in my upstairs and can say what this does is extraordinary. It does allow a reduction in noise which is about the only way to explain the far greater level of detail one will hear. cdacosta assures that the more "junctions" are treated the better. He goes into detail about tuning the amount of salt used. I am pleased with using his recommended starting point. I could hear what this does with treating the cover over my system AC receptacle. After that I started installing them in more and more. The subsequent ones do not make anywhere near as large a jump as the first one but there is a cumulative effect. Acosta assures than when his whole regimen in followed one will be amazed at what one can hear. This the combination of the salt packets, ground boxes and wraps around power cables which are all easily made.
Still waiting for the materials needed for the ground box - the magnetite (the main component) has been delayed. Cannot wait to try this. Starting with two - I use three DACs in my tri-amplified system - the main speaker left and right DACs will get them first.
The boxes are easy to assemble - I am using the recipe in the article except for little things like using hide glue I had on hand instead of the stuff recommended.
I figure what this is doing is like good cables - what is revealed could never be revealed by any other method. Some may think it is nothing more than band-aids but I counter what else do we have and we should be grateful for band-aids that work.
I was thinking last night - most of the AC work (I think of Michael Fremer's impressive AC wiring into his listening room) revolves around conductivity - removing obstacles in the path and this is important especially if one uses monstrous amplifiers to drive insensitive speakers which strikes me as wrong but that is another subject - instead of concentrating on radiation. I share with Acosta a suspicion of shielding - of course, if you absolutely need it you have no other choice but to use it - but if you do not absolutely need it it is BAD. So like naturopathic medicine we want to absorb the radiation instead of blocking it - sorry for the awkward analogy but I think it makes sense. Mr. Acosta may very well disagree with all that I have written here. Not to discount a free flow of electrons in any way but the worst aspects of the sound we attribute to our great friend and colleague AC POWER is the radiation that infects everything in its wake.
In my clumsy way I hope I have encouraged the kookiest of you to look into this. As I wrote to my audio friend in Toronto last night, the great Grant Warecki with ears that continue to amaze me, Acosta's concept is valid and important.
Just try the salt packets in a few "junctions" and hear what happens.
I sincerely think they did work initially but even the GIANDEL rated for 5000 watts inverter could not handle supplying a constant 500 watts total for four THF51 based amplifiers for the two hours I would usually listen. At the end they began to act strangely and make funny sounds so I returned to AC and continued to use the FO-FELIX filters that have been very popular for years in the GROUP BUYS section.
It was obvious that AC from the wall was superior. I do not doubt the inverters had a soft fail. No one wants to buy a new inverter every year.
The inverters produced a 22 kHz spike one could see with RTA - though I could not hear such a thing one has to figure it could produce problems at lower frequencies. I could never figure out if the noise emanated from the inverter or the AC wires coming out from it.
In December I took a look at AUDIO ASYLUM, which I do not do very often, and saw a post from a fellow talking about ground boxes and using Rochelle salt to control AC noise. I know the first time I saw an ENTREQ box I laughed as most did. I could never bring myself to pay that kind of money for a box with stuff in it but being a DIYer I would not mind building something and hearing it for myself.
The post directed me to HEAD FI and posts by cdacosta : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy-ground-box-thread.968372/
This begins with a basic guide to the ideas presented in the thread.
I bought the Rochelle salt in December and am just getting around to using it. It seemed simple to implement and it is simple to implement.
I have treated a bit over half of the switch plates and whatever you call the ones that cover receptacles in my upstairs and can say what this does is extraordinary. It does allow a reduction in noise which is about the only way to explain the far greater level of detail one will hear. cdacosta assures that the more "junctions" are treated the better. He goes into detail about tuning the amount of salt used. I am pleased with using his recommended starting point. I could hear what this does with treating the cover over my system AC receptacle. After that I started installing them in more and more. The subsequent ones do not make anywhere near as large a jump as the first one but there is a cumulative effect. Acosta assures than when his whole regimen in followed one will be amazed at what one can hear. This the combination of the salt packets, ground boxes and wraps around power cables which are all easily made.
Still waiting for the materials needed for the ground box - the magnetite (the main component) has been delayed. Cannot wait to try this. Starting with two - I use three DACs in my tri-amplified system - the main speaker left and right DACs will get them first.
The boxes are easy to assemble - I am using the recipe in the article except for little things like using hide glue I had on hand instead of the stuff recommended.
I figure what this is doing is like good cables - what is revealed could never be revealed by any other method. Some may think it is nothing more than band-aids but I counter what else do we have and we should be grateful for band-aids that work.
I was thinking last night - most of the AC work (I think of Michael Fremer's impressive AC wiring into his listening room) revolves around conductivity - removing obstacles in the path and this is important especially if one uses monstrous amplifiers to drive insensitive speakers which strikes me as wrong but that is another subject - instead of concentrating on radiation. I share with Acosta a suspicion of shielding - of course, if you absolutely need it you have no other choice but to use it - but if you do not absolutely need it it is BAD. So like naturopathic medicine we want to absorb the radiation instead of blocking it - sorry for the awkward analogy but I think it makes sense. Mr. Acosta may very well disagree with all that I have written here. Not to discount a free flow of electrons in any way but the worst aspects of the sound we attribute to our great friend and colleague AC POWER is the radiation that infects everything in its wake.
In my clumsy way I hope I have encouraged the kookiest of you to look into this. As I wrote to my audio friend in Toronto last night, the great Grant Warecki with ears that continue to amaze me, Acosta's concept is valid and important.
Just try the salt packets in a few "junctions" and hear what happens.
Glad to hear that you tried this and had good results. Shunyata has a patent on using the rochelle salts along with other materials to lower noise on the power line.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8658892
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8658892
Of course, this level of discourse was expected.
Thanks, Mr. Miller for that link.
I am surprised at the nonsense from Mr. Hoffman since I greatly appreciate his alignment protractor. But then Mr. Firebaugh thinks obsession over alignment is nonsense. One man's nonsense is another man's triumph?
Remember how in the early seventies one heard the same semi-cleverness from those who said cables made no difference. I guess for many they still don't - in many ways that is a blessing if none of this makes a difference. Leaves more time for beer and hot dogs.
As always - you never know until you try. Much easier to write one-liner responses than the rigorous trials of placing packets of salt in a switch plate which can be easily removed if only one had the strength to pick up a screwdriver. It can be debilitating
I did not expect to hear anything when I did this. Had let the bag of salt sit around for almost six months before I decided to give it a try. As any serious DIYer knows - you know nothing until you try.
Thanks, Mr. Miller for that link.
I am surprised at the nonsense from Mr. Hoffman since I greatly appreciate his alignment protractor. But then Mr. Firebaugh thinks obsession over alignment is nonsense. One man's nonsense is another man's triumph?
Remember how in the early seventies one heard the same semi-cleverness from those who said cables made no difference. I guess for many they still don't - in many ways that is a blessing if none of this makes a difference. Leaves more time for beer and hot dogs.
As always - you never know until you try. Much easier to write one-liner responses than the rigorous trials of placing packets of salt in a switch plate which can be easily removed if only one had the strength to pick up a screwdriver. It can be debilitating
I did not expect to hear anything when I did this. Had let the bag of salt sit around for almost six months before I decided to give it a try. As any serious DIYer knows - you know nothing until you try.
Yes. Rochelle Salt and Silica Gel are the main Shunyata ingredients in different proportions. At least in their first gen products. Both are partly absorbing different frequency electric fields. If I remember correctly both are also strongly absorb water from the air and start to degrade their EM field absorption properties. So you would want to avoid that. You wold also want to read about Rochelle Salt Curie temperature and it’s crystal decompose temperature to know about it’s weakness.
P.S.: I did Internet research last year and this particular patent too. )) Neat ideas. )
It's all hand-waving and nonsense until I see a logical explanation and some some measurements to back it up. The words are all "sciencey" and make sense on the surface, but it's not a useful explanation of how the invention actually accomplishes anything, much less what's special about using ferroelectric materials. The fact that a patent was issued says nothing about the effectiveness of the device; it only grants the holder the right to prevent others from copying the thing. Beware of all the well-known biases that will make you listen and think it's effective.
I think Wayne suggested this unit...
https://www.antekinc.com/bp-1000-balance-isiolation-power-supply/
They also carry to smaller versions. IIRC, he said that even his TV's colors improved...
Russellc
https://www.antekinc.com/bp-1000-balance-isiolation-power-supply/
They also carry to smaller versions. IIRC, he said that even his TV's colors improved...
Russellc
A balanced transformer actually does something - galvanic noise isolation and removal of DC component on the line.
As far as salt and silica around a receptacle, I would like to see some measurements, by someone not endorsed by Shunyata. If it absorbs or blocks noise then it is measurable.
As far as salt and silica around a receptacle, I would like to see some measurements, by someone not endorsed by Shunyata. If it absorbs or blocks noise then it is measurable.
As a DIYer and an engineer, I am willing to try and believe ideas that give measurable change. Even if I haven't got the necessary gear to measure the change, but at least I have to know what and how is it measurable. In my personal experience, measurable changes usually (but not always) go with subjective changes. I don't belive in the opposite situation, because it is against the scientific method. Just like I don't believe in occultism, and I am not willing to try anything related.
I posted in PASS since it usually more open to trying things.
I have never had any interest in the occult. I am intrigued by measurable changes that cannot be measured, yet. To think measurement precedes experience is beyond occult. I do not think i have ever read of someone measuring something and then hearing something new from the information gained from the measurement. Not unlike printing tomorrow's new today.
So simple to try and then say it doesn't work. Wanting measurements for something like this would be far beyond most folks. I would not know where to begin. Of course, one's first inclination before listening to a new recording of a Bruckner symphony is to require seeing the measurements that prove this one has merit over the one from a few years ago that measured almost perfectly. Is that what they do with record reviews at Audio Science Review? Or is that Hydrogen Audio? Oh, well ...
Try a few outlets and if you hear nothing you can leave them in or remove and then dismiss. They are harmless and the procedure is as safe as replacing a switch plate; for the squeamish.
I wonder if we have have obsessed over conduction and localized shielding instead of what cdacosta has presumed that the radiated by-products of AC are everywhere in our houses; is there a way to reduce this? What is wrong if such a simple thing makes a difference but so much easier to post than try.
I am completely skeptical of the ground box but I am going to try it based upon what the Rochelle salt did.
cdacosta has worked on his ground box idea for about a year and has tried many variations of contents and wiring. There is much more to it than filling a box with rocks - wish it was that simple - but is certainly not beyond the abilities of a DIYer. So much more meaningful to hear someone say "I tried it and I did not hear anything". Far more satisfying than "I am waiting for scientific papers and measurements".
I have never had any interest in the occult. I am intrigued by measurable changes that cannot be measured, yet. To think measurement precedes experience is beyond occult. I do not think i have ever read of someone measuring something and then hearing something new from the information gained from the measurement. Not unlike printing tomorrow's new today.
So simple to try and then say it doesn't work. Wanting measurements for something like this would be far beyond most folks. I would not know where to begin. Of course, one's first inclination before listening to a new recording of a Bruckner symphony is to require seeing the measurements that prove this one has merit over the one from a few years ago that measured almost perfectly. Is that what they do with record reviews at Audio Science Review? Or is that Hydrogen Audio? Oh, well ...
Try a few outlets and if you hear nothing you can leave them in or remove and then dismiss. They are harmless and the procedure is as safe as replacing a switch plate; for the squeamish.
I wonder if we have have obsessed over conduction and localized shielding instead of what cdacosta has presumed that the radiated by-products of AC are everywhere in our houses; is there a way to reduce this? What is wrong if such a simple thing makes a difference but so much easier to post than try.
I am completely skeptical of the ground box but I am going to try it based upon what the Rochelle salt did.
cdacosta has worked on his ground box idea for about a year and has tried many variations of contents and wiring. There is much more to it than filling a box with rocks - wish it was that simple - but is certainly not beyond the abilities of a DIYer. So much more meaningful to hear someone say "I tried it and I did not hear anything". Far more satisfying than "I am waiting for scientific papers and measurements".
Both to heat and
Next is my unscientific explanation.
There are different types of ferro-electric substances.
They have unique crystal structure that polarize by mechanical stress (kinetic energy > electrical energy).
Effect could be done vice versa and what we are interested in for passive EMI dissipation.
Depending of chosen ferro-electric substance it start to polarize reacting to certain frequencies.
These frequencies begin to lose their energy (electrical energy > kinetic energy).
In short that's what it do.
Some of patents claims about effects that those ferro-electric substances do to audio frequencies.
Silica Gel is effective in lower and mid audio freqency (below 1khz).
Rochelle Salt is effective at the higher audio freqency (above 1khz).
Those is just a subjective effects and not necessary freqency that those ferro-electrics "absorb".
Gabriel of Shunyata have interesting patent US8658892B that helps to enhances effect.
Next is my yet again unscientific explanation of what I think is going on.
There is a hollow conductive tube (copper about 50mm wide and 150mm long).
The wire passes axially through this tube.
At the (center?) of the tube wire is electrically bonded to the tube inner wall. (only at one point!)
Wire insulation is shred at that point and welded to the tube.
Ferroelectric material fills the tube.
Of course you would need cover tube from both sides to keep material inside.
And also somehow cover conductive tube itself not to kill anyone from AC hazard.
Because of wire bonded only at one point of the tube, current is not flowing through it (only if it short with something).
But ferroelectric material is now extremly bounded with conductor. Passive EMI dissipation effect enchanced.
Some of my thoughts after internet research about Shunyata Research and Caelin Gabriel.
In an old 2003 interview he said he found this effect by accident working with a derivative of this material for an application unrelated to audio.
There is a text from patent US6545213B1 "Experimentation has proven the efficacy of the methods and apparatus herein described even though the exact mechanism that produces the benefit is not known."
This leads me to conclusion that at least at the time invention was done by empirical experiments without fully understanding how. Maybe later.
He was more open in his answers at the begining years of Shunyata.
In later Shunyata interview there was a briefly mention that they suffered of reverse engineering of their products.
Currently they are no more open. Site is full of marketing veil and even patents composed to lead astray.
So don't try to search from them directly. )
P.S.: Everything writen here, take it as a grain of Salt ha ha ha.. ))
Mostly to heat and partly back to electricity.
Next is my unscientific explanation.
There are different types of ferro-electric substances.
They have unique crystal structure that polarize by mechanical stress (kinetic energy > electrical energy).
Effect could be done vice versa and what we are interested in for passive EMI dissipation.
Depending of chosen ferro-electric substance it start to polarize reacting to certain frequencies.
These frequencies begin to lose their energy (electrical energy > kinetic energy).
In short that's what it do.
Some of patents claims about effects that those ferro-electric substances do to audio frequencies.
Silica Gel is effective in lower and mid audio freqency (below 1khz).
Rochelle Salt is effective at the higher audio freqency (above 1khz).
Those is just a subjective effects and not necessary freqency that those ferro-electrics "absorb".
Gabriel of Shunyata have interesting patent US8658892B that helps to enhances effect.
Next is my yet again unscientific explanation of what I think is going on.
There is a hollow conductive tube (copper about 50mm wide and 150mm long).
The wire passes axially through this tube.
At the (center?) of the tube wire is electrically bonded to the tube inner wall. (only at one point!)
Wire insulation is shred at that point and welded to the tube.
Ferroelectric material fills the tube.
Of course you would need cover tube from both sides to keep material inside.
And also somehow cover conductive tube itself not to kill anyone from AC hazard.
Because of wire bonded only at one point of the tube, current is not flowing through it (only if it short with something).
But ferroelectric material is now extremly bounded with conductor. Passive EMI dissipation effect enchanced.
Some of my thoughts after internet research about Shunyata Research and Caelin Gabriel.
In an old 2003 interview he said he found this effect by accident working with a derivative of this material for an application unrelated to audio.
There is a text from patent US6545213B1 "Experimentation has proven the efficacy of the methods and apparatus herein described even though the exact mechanism that produces the benefit is not known."
This leads me to conclusion that at least at the time invention was done by empirical experiments without fully understanding how. Maybe later.
He was more open in his answers at the begining years of Shunyata.
In later Shunyata interview there was a briefly mention that they suffered of reverse engineering of their products.
Currently they are no more open. Site is full of marketing veil and even patents composed to lead astray.
So don't try to search from them directly. )
P.S.: Everything writen here, take it as a grain of Salt ha ha ha.. ))
Well, that's pretty stunning. You can get a patent on something and actually not even know how it works! Really? One would think a concise understanding would have to be demonstrated, otherwise you get nothing.
Now I can patent my auto-folding PP to SE guitar amp, cause it makes a cool sound (I guess) and I dunno how; I just threw a mix of electronic ingredients at the "guitar amp that sounds different" problem and stumbled upon it.
Even the US govt will just take your money; dont know how it works? We'll still be glad to cash your check. Wait till someone leverages your patent for an improved version because they do know how it works...
To patent an invention, the invention has to be novel, non-obvious, and reproducible by anyone skilled in the art. There is no requirement that you understand how the invention works or that it works at all.
Tom
... And you also should experiment with La Fleur de Sel de Guérande, much more regarded than the Sel de La Rochelle !
Otherwise, you can built your own AC Power Conditioner, like I did :
OK - mine only clean and protect the equipments, no regulation : soft-start, balanced earth, isolation transformer with screen, filtering, circuit-breaker, monitoring. Here is the schematic :
T
AC for me means Ballanced Power TX (2.5KVA), which is also said to cancel "Reactive Currents" (but I AM not an engineer...) plus Biffilar Current Reisert Baluns ideally with ring material that can handle Hz to hundreds of KHz range....good and affordable.
Cheers,
M
Dancing in The Field of Unlimited Potentials....
Cheers,
M
Dancing in The Field of Unlimited Potentials....
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