Read it again. As i earlier stated:
If you simply do not understand regular and very, very commonly used words, describing fantastic sound, beautiful music, delicious food, whiskey, beer or wine: you might start digging there.
🙂🤚
why this adjective? (Even if possibly true, it could be omitted and the thread would stay on track...)
@TheSoundMann
Three threads on the same topic have been merged. Please read the rules. Do not start multiple threads like this.
Is this what you're after? Reduce/remove listening farigue with digital audio? If so, get a better DAC that avoids the problem. I'd suggest you to look at the DDDAC, but I am sure there are others.
Why can't he want what he likes? If he knows what he likes, go for it!
No, it's a problem on your end.
Those are completely subjective terms and have only meaning for you.
I may have a completely different idea with those terms and declare that you have no clue.
And you can say the same about me. And the beauty of it is that we both are right. And wrong too.
With subjective personal opinions, you can do anything!
Since you cannot tell me in design terms what that 'warm and lush' actually means, I, as a designer, don't know how to design that.
Now, if you would say, with 'warm' I mean an excess of 2nd harmonics - now we can talk!
Jan
@JMFahey I wouldn't know how to technically interpret the thread starters question either, but... You are in the electric guitar amplifier business and electric guitar amplifiers are meant to produce a sound that the artists that play the guitars like, rather than to be as accurate as possible. What kind of terminology do you normally use to talk about guitar amplifier sound with artists?
Again. If you actually, simply do not understand regular and very, very commonly used words, describing fantastic sound, beautiful music, delicious food, whiskey, beer or wine: you might start digging there?
Perhaps you should start a own thread about words that you do not comprehend on a language-forum? Someone might help you there, regarding regular words and what they can describe about different things in the world for you.
🙂🤚
I built a preamp with those boards. I departed from the original design but stuck to the original circuit topology.
I wound up with an old school passive power supply for it. Regulated heaters (using an LT1085).
I made the first 12AX7 stage using a 150k plate load resistor (for more gain) and a red LED for cathode bias.
I made the second 12AX7 stage with its cathode unbypassed, to reduce harmonic distortion in that stage (which is where the largest signal swings are, therefore the highest distortion levels).
I adjusted RIAA equalization parts values to keep the RIAA response correct.
It turned out pretty nice. Definitely on the 'warm' side. Perhaps too warm. Lush, perhaps? I don't know.
Bear in mind that if you do go with that PCB as a basis for your build, it does not have room for physically large paper-in-oil or polypropylene film-and-foil coupling capacitors.
With the thread‘s title, was there any doubt that a subjective-objective skirmish would eventually break out? 🤣
It´s complicated.
First of all I listen to them and try to turn their vague words into Real World "nuts and volts" stuff ... after all I am expected to design , build and deliver amplifiers (and matching custom built speakers) to them; real copper, silicon, ferrite and paper objects which do what they want.
So the poetic/artistic descriptions MUST be translated to objective ones .... how else can I design, calculate and get needed parts, etc.?
Which I do, and quite successfully, have built and delivered over 14000 amplifiers and cabinets since 1969 to this very day (try to be "relevant" in any field for over 50 years); we are quite proud of our Argentine Rock and my amps and speakers are featured in a permanent exposition at our Senate as examples of "Argentine Cultural Industry", I am called by AES to deliver speeches on "How to stay relevant and stand the Asian onslaught" .... that should mean something.
Fender, Marshall and Ampeg are iconic brands in the Rock World, yet famous (here) Musicians have sold their Fender, Ampeg or Marshall stuff to buy mine (much to the surprise of their followers) because mine make them easier to get some sound they have in their minds.
Is it because of glowing reviews in some esoteric magazine?
Not at all. simply because they play and hear what they have been longing for.
I am quite known (among Musicians) for marathonic sessions where they play, using "almost finished" open guts amps, where they play, comment something on sound, and I proceed to replace parts or mod amps on the spot, then retest, and they comment " sharper" ... "sharper" .... "no, not that much, now it became shrill .... go back 2 steps" ... "now fatter .... no, not that much ... THAT 🙂 " for hours, entire nights ....
All real sound changes, nothing "imagined", and most important: coming from parts VALUE changes as in .022uF instead or .015uF and so on, not "silver vs copper vs beeswax vs NOS vs new vs wood vs teflon" NONSENSE.
Special note: Instruments are way more sensitive than ears, so IF you can HEAR a change (a real one , not imagination); THEN you will measure something different, period.
Well, that´s about it.
NO MAGIC but HARDWORK.
Since I spent many years as a professional electric guitar player, and learned about electronics by fiddling with old Fender tube guitar amps, I figure I can answer that question fairly well.
Bear in mind that I'm generalizing here, but in the electric guitar world there are basically two camps of electric guitar players who like to play through tube amps. One camp is the clean to 'bluesy' players (many jazz players among them, but also many blues, country and mainstream rock players) who generally like Fender guitar amps best. The other camp (again generalizing here) is the hard rock, heavy metal, etc. camp who go for heavily overdriven sounds, and who generally start from the Marshall and Mesa Boogie end of things.
These are good examples because the actual circuit topologies are almost identical. The original English Marshall 45 watt amp 'heads' that defined the hard rock sound of players like Eric Clapton when he was with Cream, Jimi Hendrix, and Jimmy Paige in Led Zeppelin (to name some early exemplars of the style) was a knock-off of the 1959-vintage Fender Bassman circuit, but using British-made EL34 output tubes instead of the American 6L6GB, and an added cathode follower to drive the tone control stack that itself could be driven into grid current. The combination of the CF distorting the waveform and the more sensitive EL34s being easier to drive into overload gave the Marshall JTM-45 that brashly barking, overdriven sound.
Meanwhile, Fender amps were evolving to play louder and cleaner, so their overdrive sound was more of an on the edge of clipping, back and forth between 'clean' and 'dirty' type of thing, or just a slightly warmed/dirtied up clean kind of thing. Think BB King on "Live at the Regal" (what an exquisite electric guitar sound!), Carlos Santana's sound on "Abraxas," or Wes Montgomery's sound on the yellow-covered "Wes Montgomery Trio" LP with Melvin Rhyne on electric organ... or Kenny Burrell's sound on "Midnight Blue." All of those are Gibson electric guitars played through Fender amps. Even Dick Dale's twangy 'surf guitar' sound was played through Fender guitar amps.
So in the electric guitar world, you can talk about a 'British' sound along the lines of a Marshall stack ("but this one goes to eleven") or an 'American' sound along the lines of a Fender Twin Reverb combo amp. Electric guitarists immediately know what you mean when you use those descriptors.
Guitar amp techs can get into talking about 'warm' and 'lush', but that usually means more bass frequencies in the tonal response of the amp, and more even order harmonics than odd harmonics in the overdriven sound. I mean, some people would say Eddie Van Halen's "brown sound" was "warm" and "lush." My point is that these descriptors are used by guitarists and guitar techs to define harmonic profiles of distorting amplifiers.
Now, what do these terms mean when we apply them to a hi-fi system with a DAC as the source? The relative harmonic content of the distortion generated by an amplifier as it nears clipping? Dynamic compression? A bit of a roll-off in the frequencies above about 5kHz? A tiny bit of each of these ingredients?
Perhaps an audio transformer with somewhat rolled-off highs would be the ticket for warming up the output from a DAC. Perhaps a line preamp with an output transformer? Perhaps this one? The phono preamp comes with it. http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/05/octal-preamplifier-mk2-circuit.html?m=0
Sir, that is amazing. I don't know you, and I'm sorry I haven't had the pleasure of plugging into one your amps. But now I'm really curious. Have you ever had a client who is a jazz guitarist, looking for a clean tone with more 'saturation' than the usual, or some dynamic compression for 'fatness' and more sustain out of single note lines, while still remaining clean enough to clearly hear the different notes in a complex chord?
How's this for a warm, liquid, smooth but relatively clear sound for electric guitar? (Looks like Fender Deluxe Reverb here, but the sound is in the hands, ears and mind of the player, of course...)
Here's another example... Jim Hall with Bill Evans (piano). At this time, Jim was playing a Gibson ES-175 hollow body electric guitar through a Gibson GA-50 amplifier (6SJ7 pentode > 6SN7 paraphase splitter > PP 6L6G).
Yes,of course, many times.
I am certain we could find the sound that pleases you in a couple nights, certainly less than a week.
The main advantage being you seem to know what you want, so in principle we´ll start with a basic general purpose amp and then steadily move towards your goal.
In fact I can already give you the basic recipe for it, go figure, and based on your description:
* you playing on a classic "Jazz" guitar, basically a Gibson (might be a Gretsch and of course any Luthier made one along those lines) , humbuckers, fat strings, action set high, if different scale lengths possible, the longest one.
P90s or Gretsch pickups would be fine too,
The point being we must start with the proper sound, and you doing your part of course.
* a basically "Fendery" structure, SS is fine, (we add "tubyness as needed), to which we add:
* a "sloppy" compressor (not a Studio type one by any means) which will have very short time constants, so short that lower frequencies will provide "intermodulation without clipping".
* Low frequencies don´t need to be boosted for warmth, they will be very evident by them modulating mids and highs.
*Non symmetrical and fast gain control device (a FET) will add a lot of even harmonics by itself.
* not that much compression: 10/12dB is more than enough, any more and it becomes unnatural
NOTE: much of this can be "naturally" provided by tubes, problem is that while great and easy to work with, tubes are also much of a "single act pony": you have what you have and so be it, while my approach lets me play with each factor separately and to different levels, in fact I can mimic a "tubier than tubes" amp if needed 🙂
All that driving a classic Jensen type speaker : 12" or 15" ; 1.5" or 2" voice coil.
As you see this "custom amplifier" also needs/includes the proper player (and instrument) and proper speakers, ALL are important parts on desired sound.
And that´s why I strongly disbelieve on "magic" solutions.
In this particular "smooth warm" preamp and even worse, just a buffer, and worse, starting and ending with modern Digital and Class D stuff, IT IS NOT ENOUGH, PERIOD.
Want that sound? ... fine with me, but use:
* record player + magnetic capsule + vinyl record.
* Tube or SS preamp (gain stage not that important if kept within the linear zone) + classic RIAA EQ + classic tone controls (James or Baxandall)
Both will be somewhat sloppy, not exactly matching ideal curves, that also adds a little bit flavour.
No need for magic/esoteric components.
* tube power amp or "sloppy" SS one.
Meaning not too low distortion, and poor damping.
Somewhat limited bandwidth doesn´t hurt at all.
* Classic/Old Style cabinets, such as those "phenolic ring" or paper cone Advent or similar speakers being discussed in other threads.
A you see, nothing exotic, (in fact boring OLD)
Again: If you think a plain Buffer or Line Amp (the flattest cleanest Audio device in the Tube world) simply inserted in an all Digital end to end chain, driving modern speakers will turn it into a 60´s 70´s Audio system, think again.
NO MAGIC or VOODOO
I am certain we could find the sound that pleases you in a couple nights, certainly less than a week.
The main advantage being you seem to know what you want, so in principle we´ll start with a basic general purpose amp and then steadily move towards your goal.
In fact I can already give you the basic recipe for it, go figure, and based on your description:
* you playing on a classic "Jazz" guitar, basically a Gibson (might be a Gretsch and of course any Luthier made one along those lines) , humbuckers, fat strings, action set high, if different scale lengths possible, the longest one.
P90s or Gretsch pickups would be fine too,
The point being we must start with the proper sound, and you doing your part of course.
* a basically "Fendery" structure, SS is fine, (we add "tubyness as needed), to which we add:
* a "sloppy" compressor (not a Studio type one by any means) which will have very short time constants, so short that lower frequencies will provide "intermodulation without clipping".
* Low frequencies don´t need to be boosted for warmth, they will be very evident by them modulating mids and highs.
*Non symmetrical and fast gain control device (a FET) will add a lot of even harmonics by itself.
* not that much compression: 10/12dB is more than enough, any more and it becomes unnatural
NOTE: much of this can be "naturally" provided by tubes, problem is that while great and easy to work with, tubes are also much of a "single act pony": you have what you have and so be it, while my approach lets me play with each factor separately and to different levels, in fact I can mimic a "tubier than tubes" amp if needed 🙂
All that driving a classic Jensen type speaker : 12" or 15" ; 1.5" or 2" voice coil.
As you see this "custom amplifier" also needs/includes the proper player (and instrument) and proper speakers, ALL are important parts on desired sound.
And that´s why I strongly disbelieve on "magic" solutions.
In this particular "smooth warm" preamp and even worse, just a buffer, and worse, starting and ending with modern Digital and Class D stuff, IT IS NOT ENOUGH, PERIOD.
Want that sound? ... fine with me, but use:
* record player + magnetic capsule + vinyl record.
* Tube or SS preamp (gain stage not that important if kept within the linear zone) + classic RIAA EQ + classic tone controls (James or Baxandall)
Both will be somewhat sloppy, not exactly matching ideal curves, that also adds a little bit flavour.
No need for magic/esoteric components.
* tube power amp or "sloppy" SS one.
Meaning not too low distortion, and poor damping.
Somewhat limited bandwidth doesn´t hurt at all.
* Classic/Old Style cabinets, such as those "phenolic ring" or paper cone Advent or similar speakers being discussed in other threads.
A you see, nothing exotic, (in fact boring OLD)
Again: If you think a plain Buffer or Line Amp (the flattest cleanest Audio device in the Tube world) simply inserted in an all Digital end to end chain, driving modern speakers will turn it into a 60´s 70´s Audio system, think again.
NO MAGIC or VOODOO
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Well, I do know what those words mean. But take that delicious food. That term is subjective - what you call delicious food may be yuk to someone else. So the question 'make me some delicious food' immediately generates the question: what do you like?
Same with 'design me a lush sounding amplifier'. You want some extra 2nd harmonic? Or maybe a midrange response lift? Soft clipping with limited power? Not too much speaker damping so the speaker can add its own coloration? Clearly you don't want a HiFi amp because that would just reproduce what the producer puts out, with no manipulation.
Jan
You see that a lot from people with little or no technical knowledge and limited reasoning ability.
The only way they can play is by taking word groups out of context and stamping on people.
Ohh well.
Jan