This is what exactly happened to Altec drivers. JBL was assembling UREI professional monitors with Altec 604, but JBL was rejecting 90% of Altec 604s and sent them back to Altec. I wonder where those out of spec naked Altec 604 drivers went to. We hear a lot of negative comments about later ceramic Altec 604 vs earlier alnico, but I still think it is not mainly because of ceramic vs alnico, but it is because of sloppy manufacturing of bankrupting Altec factory...
I have had UREI 803C, and I can safely say its stereo tolerance is comparable to any modern studio monitors.
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From my position your posts are more emotional than anyone else's (except perhaps some of Brandon's in reply to yours).
Why not take the example of Lars Risbo or Rene Christensen and let your work or knowledge speak for itself.
In an internet forum what counts is how well you can communicate whatever knowledge and experience you have to others. I am interested in anything anyone has to say as long as their point seems valid and they have something to back it up with. What is a waste of time is having anyone tell me how good they are. Professional or amateur doesn't matter here.
When discussion turns to the people involved and not the subject something has gone wrong.
From your posts I am sure you have much to offer just let your knowledge do the talking.
Hey all,
Had to drop in to save you some time. b_force has that canny ability of dropping in threads and posting some kind of wisdom nugget that only him knows.
You should know by now that trying to talk to b_force is like trying to talk to an online bot. He doesn't understand most people's posts, and when pushed in a corner, like asking for data or credentials, he's got the copy and paste answer about his years of experience and he shouldn't have to explain himself to beginners like us.
Moving on...
Had to drop in to save you some time. b_force has that canny ability of dropping in threads and posting some kind of wisdom nugget that only him knows.
You should know by now that trying to talk to b_force is like trying to talk to an online bot. He doesn't understand most people's posts, and when pushed in a corner, like asking for data or credentials, he's got the copy and paste answer about his years of experience and he shouldn't have to explain himself to beginners like us.
Moving on...
And it's based on knowledge and experience of users.
As long as people actually showing that they also put in time and EFFORT to read stuff maybe?
That's a whole bunch of beating around the bush.
Do you think it's important to me?
You guessed wrong than.
If I want to get proper information, I rather go get in contact with people who post their findings on IEEE, AES an the like.
In fact with those people you can actually have a decent discussion about things.
If people can actually show going/being on the subject and content (however you say that in English), as well as showing effort in at LEAST reading references, books and such? But it NEVER EVER happens.
People don't even read a couple of posts of pages back.
In this particular case we are talking how the industry and production of speakers work.
All comments I am reading show one very obvious thing, that people DO NOT have experience with it.
Again, show me credentials, that you have worked for such companies, or work as some kind of contractor or running some kind company in the field or something similar. Otherwise you're absolutely telling a bunch of trash and misinformation.
Instead of automatically just doubting people instead.
I am sorry, but there is simply not one single excuse for that kind if disrespect.
What's worse, it leaves a very very unpleasant vibe for everyone as well.
Especially for the ones who actually DO spend a lot of time diving into literature and articles.
Because I don't believe for one cent that the majority here has read books from Borwick, Eargle, Beranek, Mellow from start-till-end a couple of times. Or papers from people like Novak or so.
In fact I don't even believe that the majority even know those names at all.
There is only a lot of parroting and backseat "advising".
And at the same time they have all their opinions ready about some VERY complicated stuff?
Again such a bunch of beating around the bush. Sorry, but you really don't fool me with that.
Not to mention the weird snarky comments I am reading here as well.
How old are we, 7 ?
But whatever, go buy that 100k Klippel thing, see how much better you are in a few years.
fyi, don't call this offtopic as well please, this whole topic was already offtopic since page two.
As for the other vast majority of posts. That's just the pot calling the kettle black.
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Thanks 🙂
But that only works if people actually try to understand things, read an listen.
If the default approach is already skeptical and which attitude, you won't get anywhere.
And at a certain point, yes I get rather annoyed.
Even more so when I do have f*ckin' years of experience in something and people call it BS.
Sorry but you just made a total fool out of yourself.
Fyi, this is not just about myself but in general I see more people with quite some knowledge and experience not being taken seriously.
Especially when you just say that I al like a wall, just dumping words.
Sorry, but than you're not even trying to understand ANYTHING at all.
I still think it is the right approach whether anyone listens or not.
I don't know if this is aimed at me but I was not trying to upset you or belittle your experience.
My main point was really the late Zilch's tag line "More data, less w#nk" i.e. I want to hear about the fruits of that experience.
Back to the original question... I have thought about what I would pay, and I have refined my offer a bit. I would not test one of my already built speakers. Instead I would build a test box for the sole purpose of comparing NFS to my existing methods. I am thinking it would be a decent 8" driver in simple unbraced box... maybe a Dayton RS225... combined with an inexpensive tweeter. Then I would compare and refine my DIY technique until I could (being optimistic here) match the results. It would be interesting to see how I could resolve cabinet resonances in the 150 - 600 Hz range, how well I could predict diffraction, how well I could account for baffle step, etc... I could also double check the calibration of my microphone...
I would pay $500 for that.
I would pay $500 for that.
^You could also pick a speaker that has already been measured with NFS and compare how close can get in home and what features are missing or where is error if any. Perhaps even two different speakers if at all possible to get mo data.
Measurements are really the key as you say. Its easy to get good results with DIY speakers and refine them with VituixCAD. As long as measurements are reliable. If there is known systematic error then it can be predicted and error estimated and zoned in with listening. Unknown / intermittent errors are really nasty if trying to get forward, pieces don't seem to fit together 🙂
I've measured my protos many times during few years and the results differ some every time, which is a bummer. Have been trying to "standardize" the procedure, speaker and pedestal placement in room, all settings on interface noted, always measure all drivers even if only one was modified (on a multiway speaker) to keep windowing consistent, always use measurements from one session only. Its helpful to compare something that didn't change to previous measurement session and see if results are the same. Could be a separate reference speaker that is measured every time to kind of tune in to the process and rig before the DUT gets measured.
There are many steps and chances to make error that are not a problem with fixed rig in dedicated environment and routine operation 🙂
Measurements are really the key as you say. Its easy to get good results with DIY speakers and refine them with VituixCAD. As long as measurements are reliable. If there is known systematic error then it can be predicted and error estimated and zoned in with listening. Unknown / intermittent errors are really nasty if trying to get forward, pieces don't seem to fit together 🙂
I've measured my protos many times during few years and the results differ some every time, which is a bummer. Have been trying to "standardize" the procedure, speaker and pedestal placement in room, all settings on interface noted, always measure all drivers even if only one was modified (on a multiway speaker) to keep windowing consistent, always use measurements from one session only. Its helpful to compare something that didn't change to previous measurement session and see if results are the same. Could be a separate reference speaker that is measured every time to kind of tune in to the process and rig before the DUT gets measured.
There are many steps and chances to make error that are not a problem with fixed rig in dedicated environment and routine operation 🙂
What you say is precisely what Erin has done for us.
I built my cabinet, complete with drivers and shipped them from Australia to USA months ago and Erin kindly measured the drivers in cabinet with his Near Field Scanner. Unbeknownst to me, @augerpro had his cabinet sent to Erin to be measured too. Erin agreed to do this for no charge, nor did he ask for anything in return.
My cabinet is fully braced fully deadened fully damped all with the knowledge learnt from @augerpro Monster Construction Threads. And fully veneered.
And what we are trying to explain to everybody that NFS shows things warts and all. When we compare with our own methods they are close but not the same as the NFS. Sure, the former is a close approximation that works for the intents and purposes of loudspeaker design. It is good enough? Sure. But is it giving new data that may lead to new understanding and new directions? Absolutely.
As you know, in the 20th century people were designing speakers with a single on-axis measurement, or in some cases, no measurements at all.
I get that yeah it’s just a tool; it doesn’t design better speakers, as much a circle jig or CNC or a spinorama measurement designs better speakers. But In many ways it’s better than an anechoic chamber, which probably costs a 10-100 fold how much it costs to buy a NFS.
Some people don’t want to see things in all their ugly gory under a microscope. Nor need to. I get that.
But don’t blame the microscope. You never know where it will take you…
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For DIYers who are not going to purchase either a Klippel NFS or an anechoic chamber in what ways is using the scanner better than using an anechoic chamber the measurements in which the scanner seeks to emulate? Processing of measurements can also be done in an anechoic chamber in a better acoustical environment. DIYers will need to pack up their speakers and send them away so no difference there negating the main appeal of the scanner (for industrial use) which is to take fast local measurements. Realistic commercial prices for operating a scanner are likely to be little different to hiring the real thing although what is available locally and/or where one has connections can be relevant with expensive and specialised kit.
For those with an interest getting/paying for time on Erin or Amir's existing scanners which were bought primarily for other purposes looks rational/reasonable to me although, obviously, what Erin and Amir have to say about it is rather relevant. Considering 100k to purchase one to solely serve the tiny and possibly fleeting demand from the DIY speaker community does not but, obviously, that is a decision for others. Interesting though.
"We going around in circles." Bad pun?
The request feels like the FCC EMI test process. That's only useful after you have done your preliminarily testing and then the lab will help you fix the issues you found. If I were to take a speaker to a lab with a Klippel I would hope they help me address the issues that surface. That will never be cheap.
There are two significant Klippel systems. One is very useful for optimizing low frequency driver performance getting the best linearity from surrounds and magnet structures. The other, the NFS, is great for collecting a vast amount of information. Onne issue though is the quasi automatic evaluation of that information. His target market is Asian speaker manufacturers who are looking for something to tell them the speaker is "right". Then to start "cost down" until it just falls out of right. However one can say those analyses are somewhat arbitrary. And while it may make for a lot of better sounding inexpensive speakers its also going to potentially homogenize the volume speaker business. A skilled speaker design however can get useful insights from the system. However S/He may well be able accomplish the same with simpler tools.
Another speaker that is meticulously adjusted in manufacture to be flat +/- 1 dB 40 Hz to 20 KHz: https://cdn-docs.av-iq.com/dataSheet/Meyer Sound HD-1 Data Sheet1.pdf I know they are individually adjusted having spent time with one of the techs who did that work. The new version is not as closely specified. Still quite pricy.
The request feels like the FCC EMI test process. That's only useful after you have done your preliminarily testing and then the lab will help you fix the issues you found. If I were to take a speaker to a lab with a Klippel I would hope they help me address the issues that surface. That will never be cheap.
There are two significant Klippel systems. One is very useful for optimizing low frequency driver performance getting the best linearity from surrounds and magnet structures. The other, the NFS, is great for collecting a vast amount of information. Onne issue though is the quasi automatic evaluation of that information. His target market is Asian speaker manufacturers who are looking for something to tell them the speaker is "right". Then to start "cost down" until it just falls out of right. However one can say those analyses are somewhat arbitrary. And while it may make for a lot of better sounding inexpensive speakers its also going to potentially homogenize the volume speaker business. A skilled speaker design however can get useful insights from the system. However S/He may well be able accomplish the same with simpler tools.
Another speaker that is meticulously adjusted in manufacture to be flat +/- 1 dB 40 Hz to 20 KHz: https://cdn-docs.av-iq.com/dataSheet/Meyer Sound HD-1 Data Sheet1.pdf I know they are individually adjusted having spent time with one of the techs who did that work. The new version is not as closely specified. Still quite pricy.