So after the initial results of my prototype on Erin's Klippel, I was pretty excited to bring something pretty damn good to the DIY community. Unfortunately, Erin will be stepping back from testing for an indefinite amount of time. I'm having a tough time finding a Klippel owner that would work with me for a hobbyist price. So me and another member @tktran303 are both trying to figure out what to do. He floated the crazy idea of "let's buy one". So my question is, how much REAL interest is there in this community to measure your speakers for a nominal fee? Or do special tests there is interest in?
Well, my knee jerk response was $100 pair for the moment if still DIYing since no clue what all you're offering and after digging around found that in 7/'75, the local Altec distributor charged $25 to measure and recommend several different alignments/custom XOs using a then claimed $30+k huge rolling rack of equipment for doing up to stadiums and this cumulative inflation calculator bumped it up a bit, so maybe a guideline?
Total inflation from July 1975
to July 2022 is 446.63%
$25 after inflation is $136.66
Total inflation from July 1975
to July 2022 is 446.63%
$25 after inflation is $136.66
I'm looking forward to seeing the responses here. Intuitively, I would think most people would be satisfied with the results you can get just from measuring outside, but maybe I'm wrong. But it seems to me that the measurements we can make at home are pretty dang good already
It's my understanding that a major factor in Erin's decision to buy a NFS was convenience and time saving, which the process of packaging and shipping out a big speaker in the mail would sort of nullify. I am a newbie though, so maybe I am mistaken, but it seems to me that people as technically oriented and as committed to absolute accuracy as would warrant the use of this sort of service are pretty few and far between. I would not be surprised if you got more business from actual loudspeaker manufacturers! Or do they already have a service like yours which we aren't privy too...?
All this being said, I hope you do buy a klippel... that would be pretty sweet
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GM> that was sort of my feeling on price too
Bryguy> I have no service, just seeing if there is a way to get a Klippel and get my investment back out of it. You're right that actual manufacturers are probably the likely customers. But the big ones have their own and the smaller ones probably use MISCO, as they are are the NA distributor. They charge $1k for a spinorama-type scan.
Bryguy> I have no service, just seeing if there is a way to get a Klippel and get my investment back out of it. You're right that actual manufacturers are probably the likely customers. But the big ones have their own and the smaller ones probably use MISCO, as they are are the NA distributor. They charge $1k for a spinorama-type scan.
I have no interest in paying for an external measurement service in support of my hobby interest. The measurements I can take with a typical hobbyist setup costing a few hundred pounds is sufficient. Not as accurate, reliable or fast as could have be done in the lab but sufficient and immediately available when required. Also I tend to find that for me working out how to get information and/or services cheaply that can do the job is part of the fun of a hobby.
Should the need arise during a work project (i.e. third party funding at commercial rates) where time is more costly then I would look to a reasonably close acoustical lab/service that is well equipped, known to be reliable and can fit in with the project's schedule.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/klippel-near-field-scanner-on-a-shoestring.318151/
Buying or hiring should be below our dignity....
Buying or hiring should be below our dignity....
When you say Klippel, are you referring to the Near Field Scanner System for Home / Studio Monitor? https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Bilder/allgemein/Examples Packages/KLIPPEL Analyzer System_Example Packages_NFS (2022_05).pdf
It really depends on where in the world you are. Here in Europe we have a few options including Klippel themselves in Dresden. I could give you an idea of what we are paying using a lab with a 9.6x7.5x6.5 meter anechoic chamber equipped with Brüel&Kjaer and Klippel equipment in a pm. Also remember that there also some skill involved in these measurements as well as getting the most out of them. A skilled operator/ engineer is also vital to get valid results.
There really is no comparing the precision of these measurements to amateur setups, if you deem that level of accuracy is necessary is another matter.
It really depends on where in the world you are. Here in Europe we have a few options including Klippel themselves in Dresden. I could give you an idea of what we are paying using a lab with a 9.6x7.5x6.5 meter anechoic chamber equipped with Brüel&Kjaer and Klippel equipment in a pm. Also remember that there also some skill involved in these measurements as well as getting the most out of them. A skilled operator/ engineer is also vital to get valid results.
There really is no comparing the precision of these measurements to amateur setups, if you deem that level of accuracy is necessary is another matter.
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I would pay $300 for a modest size 2-way speaker, and $500 for a large 3-way. I suspect shipping costs would add another $100 to $200.
At one time I thought a Klippel NFS set up was $80k. Now I see a cost of 93k Euros, which given inflation seems believable.
I believe an acoustic lab service (or any other lab) would need to be testing full time to recoup the cost of the test equipment and facilities, and make payroll.
If an NFS lab service could do two systems a week at my price ($500), in theory they could recoup the cost of the NFS system in two years. Two a week is rather optimistic, and the person(s) doing the testing would be working for free...
j.
At one time I thought a Klippel NFS set up was $80k. Now I see a cost of 93k Euros, which given inflation seems believable.
I believe an acoustic lab service (or any other lab) would need to be testing full time to recoup the cost of the test equipment and facilities, and make payroll.
If an NFS lab service could do two systems a week at my price ($500), in theory they could recoup the cost of the NFS system in two years. Two a week is rather optimistic, and the person(s) doing the testing would be working for free...
j.
Get 1000 users to prepay $200 each, which is very reasonable: $100 for their share in the machine, another $100 for renting a shop, setup, paying somebody to operate it, etc.
You don´t get 1000 interested users before buying the machine? Forget it.
Economics 101
PS: "interested" means actually depositing the money in a dedicated account, not bare lip service.
If in, say, 6 to 12 Months $200 k is not reached, return money to investors.
No interest paid because it´s not a Financial investment and probably a little less after deducing expenses (opening the account and some fees).
Fees including Legal Advice for drawing up some kind of contract explaining everything and which prospective members accept.
Members can use the machine for a nominal fee (almost at cost); non members pay extra of course.
You don´t get 1000 interested users before buying the machine? Forget it.
Economics 101
PS: "interested" means actually depositing the money in a dedicated account, not bare lip service.
If in, say, 6 to 12 Months $200 k is not reached, return money to investors.
No interest paid because it´s not a Financial investment and probably a little less after deducing expenses (opening the account and some fees).
Fees including Legal Advice for drawing up some kind of contract explaining everything and which prospective members accept.
Members can use the machine for a nominal fee (almost at cost); non members pay extra of course.
Yes, + sales tax in the EU. Even for a commercial entity that that can deduct the sales tax and can write it off in ten years it is a substantial investment, I personally know one head of R&D at a major UK hifi speaker manufacturer who was given a prompt NO by the chief executive when requesting a purchase😉.
Just to check. Are you saying that you would be personally prepared to pay $500 + $100-200 shipping for a full set of measurements for your own 3 way DIY loudspeakers? Or more that this is a ballpark figure required for such an enterprise to be viable.
^^^
Well I'd posit that's there's no difference.
You could go both in the 1 step of measuring each of the drivers, in box.
Once you've got the measurements in hand, the "CTA2034A as simulated by VituixCAD2" and the "CTA2034A as measured by NFS" graphs would be equivalent, because VituixCAD2 applies the crossover design to each and every measurement angle you feed it.
So VituixCAD2 is powerful and accurate enough to simulate your completed speaker's CTA2034A measurement. You don't need to re-measure the completed speaker on the NFS.
That is really OCD... not that there's anything wrong with that. 🤣
Well I'd posit that's there's no difference.
You could go both in the 1 step of measuring each of the drivers, in box.
Once you've got the measurements in hand, the "CTA2034A as simulated by VituixCAD2" and the "CTA2034A as measured by NFS" graphs would be equivalent, because VituixCAD2 applies the crossover design to each and every measurement angle you feed it.
So VituixCAD2 is powerful and accurate enough to simulate your completed speaker's CTA2034A measurement. You don't need to re-measure the completed speaker on the NFS.
That is really OCD... not that there's anything wrong with that. 🤣
exactly, but if I had the driver measurements I could design multiple different speakers trusting VituixCAD to predict the final response with sufficient accuracy or I could then simulate different baffle arrangements to find what worked best.
maybe I am being obtuse but something does not add up.
The doubtless impressive Klippel "machine" costs around U$100k
Plus installation, a place to run it, etc.
A conceptually similar Dayton Audio system costs U$430
Is the high end one U$99570 "better"?
I tested neither so can´t give a personal opinion, but Mr Erin himself says:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/testmethods/
Well the main difference is we don't have a CEO. Unless I consider my spouse as the CFO.
You may or may not, at your peril.
But if one can swing a frivolous new motorcycle or automobile purchase... you can take your loudspeaker addiction...err.. I mean hobby... to the next level.
I thought it was about a new Honda Civic Hatch type price, not a BMW X6 M type price...
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Yes and then sometime in 2021 he acquired the Klippel Near Field Scanner, which is the complete robotic machine that does the full measurements.
Klippel makes a lot of products, which creates some confusion...
I am not familiar with the "Klippel", but from looking at their website for a few seconds it seems it's system that (a) collects near-field data from a loudspeaker at different positions, using a robot thingy to automatically position the microphone and (b) a bit of software that will process the data and make pretty diagrams. If I'd need such a thing, I'd be tempted to DIY one. I am thinking of stepper motors and some extensions to MATAA to talk to the steppers...