JMFahey and MarsBravo
Gentlemen, do not look for difficult roads, in fact, everything is simpler. I, as a professional marketing engineer, simply pointed to the Parasound A21, which, in addition to price, has characteristics such as weight and power, as well as the location of parts such as a transformer, radiators and everything else. From the other end of the telephone cable during the day, the same professionals announced a price for the development of design documentation for the nearest analogue, which has the same lineup and which they created at about the same time. Since the price was average from the cost of a dinner at a restaurant to a million dollars, it was perfect for me. Moreover, as a professional marketing engineer, I also focused on approximately this amount.
Gentlemen, do not look for difficult roads, in fact, everything is simpler. I, as a professional marketing engineer, simply pointed to the Parasound A21, which, in addition to price, has characteristics such as weight and power, as well as the location of parts such as a transformer, radiators and everything else. From the other end of the telephone cable during the day, the same professionals announced a price for the development of design documentation for the nearest analogue, which has the same lineup and which they created at about the same time. Since the price was average from the cost of a dinner at a restaurant to a million dollars, it was perfect for me. Moreover, as a professional marketing engineer, I also focused on approximately this amount.
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I think diyaudio member "EVA" had a design all but done for a manufacturer that fell through, he may be worth looking up at least for a chat.
I studied many schemes, probably about 1000, both industrial and domestic, both foreign and Soviet. I use some ideas that I liked, but I do not use ready-made schemes of other people, I was not interested in it even from childhood. I tested my idea in a computer model on the most modern electronic components of 2019 and 2020, and it showed its extremely high efficiency. I know for sure that with such quality characteristics no one has produced anything like this yet. I was only interested in one thing: how much will it cost to develop design documentation for the closest analogue in weight, power and layout of elements. Amplifiers that are suitable and similar to the Parasound A21 in the world, in fact, a fairly large number of models have been released. Parasound A21 is one of those who are now clearly visible, and many understand or know its design.
You can also approach it from the man-hours perspective.
Electronic design, 40hrs, incl. simulation. Designing PCB layout, establishing BOM, ordering PCB & parts, 30hrs.
Mechanical layout, enclosure design, two meetings with CNC people, 50hrs.
Project documentation 20hrs.
Building up prototype 20hrs
Measuring prototype & documenting performance 40hrs.
Correction/modifications & ordering & building 2nd prototype 100hrs.
Final documentation etc 10hrs.
So about 300+ hrs @ $ 100/hr = $ 30k+
Parts etc: prototype enclosure $ 250, Prototype parts 2 x $250, misc material, $ 250. Total $1k
That should get you in the ballpark.
Jan
But behind that is a plan to market it, otherwise what's the point to let someone else build one? (This is DIYaudio after all).
And we are trying to tell you that the design and prototype is only a minuscule part of what it needed to successfully place it in the market. Which is very strange for someone who claims being a 'marketing engineer', whatever that means.
Jan
No need to consider Russian fools, this is not Hollywood for you.
I know very well that selling a product can be much more expensive than developing or manufacturing it. But in each case, everything will ultimately depend on the specific product and specific numbers. And this is perhaps the most important point to know how much each of these stages actually costs.
And I will repeat this for you for the third time, which now interests me the most, how much is the development of project documentation, and not the issue of sale. In other words, I am interested in the costs in the first stage, because even they can be very significant and too expensive. In addition, prices can vary greatly from the country where this documentation was developed. Now I have a price for the USA. In Russia, this can be a much smaller amount, as well as selling costs. At least, I think, it is worth starting to sell this product mainly in Russia. As, for example, many Taiwanese firms begin to sell in Taiwan and only then around the world.
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That doesn't make any sense. I do not need the development of an amplifier 20 or 40 years ago. To do this, there is a complete ready-made and free service manual on any specialized site.
All amplifiers currently on the market are circuits 20 or 40 years old or older. There is nothing fundamentally new in them. With the exception of digital amplifiers, but this is a separate story and a direction that also not everyone likes the way it sounds. To offer obviously old schemes to the market, I consider this a really pointless exercise and a waste of time and money.
All amplifiers currently on the market are circuits 20 or 40 years old or older. There is nothing fundamentally new in them. With the exception of digital amplifiers, but this is a separate story and a direction that also not everyone likes the way it sounds. To offer obviously old schemes to the market, I consider this a really pointless exercise and a waste of time and money.
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I think I answered that for you already.
A sales glossy should be cheap enough to do. Many costing scenarios, depending on who does what.
Free service manual? How many amp manufactures do that these days?
Bringing up service, this is another issue as a mfg, to determine your product service model/methods/warranty procedures.
Jan put forth a reasonable assessment of development costs, probably a best case scenario imo.
It does not not matter how old the circuit designs are, your product development costs may vary somewhat depending on the design. It is the mech design, tooling, fabrication that IMO is a fair bit of the dev costs. Especially if it is your first and you have no other designs to leverage from.
Everyone knows the cost in a class AB type power-amp are in descending order, transformer, cooling/package/chassis, output devices ...
Jan I think you have under-scoped the effort.
Our product development cycle is generally 9 months.
This includes both a dedicated software engineer and hardware engineer. The mechanical engineer works maybe one month on PWB layouts. We generally have a prototype, pre-production and first production (Verification) builds.
This assumes no mechanical housing development. Prototypes from vendors can can add time to the schedule as well as cost if revisions are necessary.
One documentation worker is on a project about 4 months. Document reviews add to a schedule.
Agency certification to achieve CE is at least six weeks (we do it internally with our own certified lab). We will include visits by certifying bodies like U.L, CSA, FM, etc.
This presumes no C-Tic, or other Asian certification. European and NA certification only.No special certification like Maritime which would not apply to consumer goods any way.
Understandably our products are more rigorously tested than a consumer grade audio amp, however there are many pitfalls to producing a commercial product.
Agency certification is a big issue if you fail, have to redesign and retest.
Our product development cycle is generally 9 months.
This includes both a dedicated software engineer and hardware engineer. The mechanical engineer works maybe one month on PWB layouts. We generally have a prototype, pre-production and first production (Verification) builds.
This assumes no mechanical housing development. Prototypes from vendors can can add time to the schedule as well as cost if revisions are necessary.
One documentation worker is on a project about 4 months. Document reviews add to a schedule.
Agency certification to achieve CE is at least six weeks (we do it internally with our own certified lab). We will include visits by certifying bodies like U.L, CSA, FM, etc.
This presumes no C-Tic, or other Asian certification. European and NA certification only.No special certification like Maritime which would not apply to consumer goods any way.
Understandably our products are more rigorously tested than a consumer grade audio amp, however there are many pitfalls to producing a commercial product.
Agency certification is a big issue if you fail, have to redesign and retest.
In general, all costs in the end always fall on the buyer of the product. Including all sales and development costs. This is an axiom that no one can refute. Regarding the novelty in class AB and A amplifiers, look around all the circuits for this obsolete junk from the late 60s and they now only have new radio elements because the old ones are no longer being produced, and not because the new ones give something special unique, and this is also true. In my version, new elements do not just replace old ones that have been discontinued, but give a fundamentally improved performance. And this is no longer a scheme from the 60s or 2000s.
Phase of the harmonics
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You are very confusing. Are you saying you have designed a modern amplifier, or are you saying you want someone to do that for you?
And your 1st priority is that it is 'modern'?
In that case, can I quote Bruno Putzeys:
'The road to hell: specify the design and accept the performance; the road to heaven: specify the performance and accept the design'.
(I assume you do know who Bruno is, but in this thread, nothing can surprise me anymore ;-).
Jan
And your 1st priority is that it is 'modern'?
In that case, can I quote Bruno Putzeys:
'The road to hell: specify the design and accept the performance; the road to heaven: specify the performance and accept the design'.
(I assume you do know who Bruno is, but in this thread, nothing can surprise me anymore ;-).
Jan
Sorry, but first you could find out the difference between developing a new thing and developing drawings and working on this thing. Are your amplifiers modern? And what is their novelty? Each of you can ask this question to yourself ...
Ah, it’s not difficult to deceive me! ... I’m glad to deceive myself !. Alexander Pushkin. I also hope you know who it is.
https://1news.md/uploads/posts/2017-06/1496739688_pushkin.jpg
Ah, it’s not difficult to deceive me! ... I’m glad to deceive myself !. Alexander Pushkin. I also hope you know who it is.
https://1news.md/uploads/posts/2017-06/1496739688_pushkin.jpg
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GUNFU,
During all contributed posts above, I get the impression something is lost during translations. To me, it sounds as if you are annoyed, a bit angry and maybe disappointed by the answers given sofar. If you have this briliant idea, design or whatever and want to sell it or start your own enterprise, I'd say again: engage!
Keep in mind that this is a DIY audio forum and not an electronics entrepeneur forum. Many have given some input from their own experience, being on amateur or professional level, but this is it. Be proud to be who you are. Be proud to be a russian. A lot of technical achievements have been reached by russians. There are forumfolk here who enjoy russian tubes still. That's old technology, and it is your destiny to open new ways with your invention. Go, and don't look back. One day, I dearly hope to enjoy your Phase off the Harmonics before I die. Many famous brands started in the garage. The road is ahead. Good luck!
During all contributed posts above, I get the impression something is lost during translations. To me, it sounds as if you are annoyed, a bit angry and maybe disappointed by the answers given sofar. If you have this briliant idea, design or whatever and want to sell it or start your own enterprise, I'd say again: engage!
Keep in mind that this is a DIY audio forum and not an electronics entrepeneur forum. Many have given some input from their own experience, being on amateur or professional level, but this is it. Be proud to be who you are. Be proud to be a russian. A lot of technical achievements have been reached by russians. There are forumfolk here who enjoy russian tubes still. That's old technology, and it is your destiny to open new ways with your invention. Go, and don't look back. One day, I dearly hope to enjoy your Phase off the Harmonics before I die. Many famous brands started in the garage. The road is ahead. Good luck!
MarsBravo,
Thank you so much. The most important obstacle to this is finance. But I hope that after many countries, including Russia, have introduced tough, but stupid quarantine measures, the economies of these countries may receive not so much a second wave of coronovirus as explosive economic growth. Belarus, Sweden and even China now spit on this next flu. I was really annoyed by these three people who write all sorts of nonsense, but have no idea about this subject, how to organize a business from a business idea.
Thank you so much. The most important obstacle to this is finance. But I hope that after many countries, including Russia, have introduced tough, but stupid quarantine measures, the economies of these countries may receive not so much a second wave of coronovirus as explosive economic growth. Belarus, Sweden and even China now spit on this next flu. I was really annoyed by these three people who write all sorts of nonsense, but have no idea about this subject, how to organize a business from a business idea.
Even Class D is old. I first came across the concept in an amateur radio magazine around 1977 and tried to convince Allen Wright, for whom I worked at that time, that it was worth pursuing.
Edit: Found the article. 73 magazine, May 1964, p. 26
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Judging by the order of the letters in the alphabet, this is a later invention. Class A amplifiers, for example, were invented at the dawn of electrical engineering at the turn of the century. Class D amplifiers due to the complex implementation of high-quality circuitry and with an almost decent sound began to appear the last 20 years. And even now, commercially available amplifiers in class D, they still sound specific.
I did not understand your thought. If you are talking about the number of harmonics, then you need to evaluate their amplitude level, and it is extremely low compared to any other circuit.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/solid-state/772641d1564949033-phase-harmonics-1-jpg
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/solid-state/772642d1564949033-phase-harmonics-2-jpg
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/solid-state/772643d1564949033-phase-harmonics-3-jpg
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/solid-state/772640d1564949033-phase-harmonics-4-jpg
Phase of the harmonics
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Switching amps have been around a long time, before the 70s.
No, they don't, unless you peek of course....
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