Just a bit depressed today, by seeing the constant rounds of How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? style conversations and discussions happening ... there seems very little interest overall in achieving satisfying reproduction above a bare minimal level - and what needs to be done to get there ...
Edit: Without hopefully stepping on too many toes, 🙂, I could refer to conversations where precisely the degree and style of feedback results in easily measurable distortion figures, which means what? ... and those where the dispersion pattern of a speaker driver is analysed to the n'th degree, as if that will create nirvana ... 😉
Edit: Without hopefully stepping on too many toes, 🙂, I could refer to conversations where precisely the degree and style of feedback results in easily measurable distortion figures, which means what? ... and those where the dispersion pattern of a speaker driver is analysed to the n'th degree, as if that will create nirvana ... 😉
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I do believe that this topic may benefit from some additional emphasis on clarifying what exact conversations have you so bothered.
I could use some help with my bias idea.
I don't think we are going to see a new generation just sit and listen to music the way we did. (and do). Remember that much of high end in the golden era was supported only by ego and not really by the love of the music. Now the ego is paid for elsewhere leaving we the few who just listen. Between too-loud clubs, ear buds, and wars, we have two generations basically deaf.
I don't think we are going to see a new generation just sit and listen to music the way we did. (and do). Remember that much of high end in the golden era was supported only by ego and not really by the love of the music. Now the ego is paid for elsewhere leaving we the few who just listen. Between too-loud clubs, ear buds, and wars, we have two generations basically deaf.
tvrgeek, take a look at the statistics of Diyaudio. An all time visitor record was established in 2013. Don't rule out the fun of tinkering and making something by yourself 🙂. Still i too, have some worries about the average age...
I am interested to see that one of the acknowledged 'sounds of the show' at the HiFi Wigwam gathering on Sunday was a reel-to-reel feeding line level crossovers, two Quad 405s and a pair of LS5/8 monitors - all of which (or something very similar) could be purchased for a few hundred quid on eBay. If the question is one of 'how to get there', then the Wigwammers seem to have answered that it can be 1970s solid state amplifiers with op amps in the audio path plus polypropylene cones in 'monkey coffins' with sharp corners. What does this tell us? Some of the following?
1. Solid state amps & monkey coffins really are the peak of audio reproduction.
2. The Wigwammers were bamboozled by the 'vintage-ness' and 'studio-ness' of the setup, their brains creating a perception of sound quality that wan't there and/or letting their guards down and committing audio heresy by admitting that good sound reproduction has nothing to do with flea powered valve amps and ridiculous horns.
3. The sight of a reel to reel always seduces people into perceiving great sound no matter what gear it is being reproduced through.
4. Active speakers are strikingly better sounding than passive under any circumstances.
For what it's worth, I do actually believe that solid state amps and 'monkey coffins' are the way to get there! (And active speakers).
1. Solid state amps & monkey coffins really are the peak of audio reproduction.
2. The Wigwammers were bamboozled by the 'vintage-ness' and 'studio-ness' of the setup, their brains creating a perception of sound quality that wan't there and/or letting their guards down and committing audio heresy by admitting that good sound reproduction has nothing to do with flea powered valve amps and ridiculous horns.
3. The sight of a reel to reel always seduces people into perceiving great sound no matter what gear it is being reproduced through.
4. Active speakers are strikingly better sounding than passive under any circumstances.
For what it's worth, I do actually believe that solid state amps and 'monkey coffins' are the way to get there! (And active speakers).
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Ok now we have to assign the prizes for best source, best interconnects, best preamplifier 🙄
Edit: and of course the best room ...
Edit: and of course the best room ...
If we get down to that level are we not back in 'angels dancing on the head of a pin' territory?
Personally, I don't believe that audio nirvana depends on this particular preamp working in perfect synergy with that bit of wire.
I don't mind either; I use just a buffer to drive the amplifier to its max headroom ( which can be quite low 🙂 )
Well way back,
I thought a 405 Quad+Pre and pink triangle TT with some Tannoys was just ace...But those were the days when HIFI existed...😀..and I was younger...
On reflection it was a thing of the past...😛...now we know HIFI doesn't exist it was a figment of imagination and angels dancing on a pin head.
But I do miss those days...😉...
Regards
M. Gregg
I thought a 405 Quad+Pre and pink triangle TT with some Tannoys was just ace...But those were the days when HIFI existed...😀..and I was younger...
On reflection it was a thing of the past...😛...now we know HIFI doesn't exist it was a figment of imagination and angels dancing on a pin head.
But I do miss those days...😉...
Regards
M. Gregg
Hopefully the spirit of this thread is that we can just talk about ideas rather than homing in on specific objects or amplifier topologies, say.
I would start by making an observation: the vast majority of music recordings have some form of artificial compression applied. Even if we had perfectly linear playback apparatus and could play these recordings back at realistic volume the results *would not* sound realistic. Recordings tend to be compressed because most playback apparatus can't handle high dynamic range, and the circumstances in which people listen would often preclude the use of uncompressed recordings anyway.
So I think we have a situation where we get lowest common denominator processing of recordings designed to complement low cost equipment and people's casual listening requirements. Even if audiophiles had perfect equipment (and some unusual people do) it would sound 'wrong' - how could it not? So my theory is that we are at a bit of an impasse where perfect equipment sounds wrong with most recordings. I think that audiophiles are therefore unknowingly casting around for gimmicks to spice up the sound of compressed recordings, and perfect measurements are absolutely not what they are seeking. 'Euphonic distortion' is one aspect. Strange frequency response anomalies is another. A bit of extra 'edge' that enhances transients adds a bit of extra dynamism to the sound.
But it can never be a universal panacea that works on all recordings. True uncompressed recordings will be over-dynamic for such a system, for example. And so this feeds into another theory of mine: that there is a two-way process of the equipment being designed to complement particular recordings and recordings being selected to sound good on the equipment. I have observed that audiophiles judge their systems based on a pretty narrow repertoire of recordings and that if other recordings sound bad then the system is just 'too revealing'!
Please feel free to demolish my theories! But please start by addressing the compression issue i.e. even if we have perfect linear playback then I claim that it must sound wrong with an artificially compressed recording (lack of dynamics, perceived frequency response errors, Fletcher Munson etc.), and most recordings *are* compressed.
I would start by making an observation: the vast majority of music recordings have some form of artificial compression applied. Even if we had perfectly linear playback apparatus and could play these recordings back at realistic volume the results *would not* sound realistic. Recordings tend to be compressed because most playback apparatus can't handle high dynamic range, and the circumstances in which people listen would often preclude the use of uncompressed recordings anyway.
So I think we have a situation where we get lowest common denominator processing of recordings designed to complement low cost equipment and people's casual listening requirements. Even if audiophiles had perfect equipment (and some unusual people do) it would sound 'wrong' - how could it not? So my theory is that we are at a bit of an impasse where perfect equipment sounds wrong with most recordings. I think that audiophiles are therefore unknowingly casting around for gimmicks to spice up the sound of compressed recordings, and perfect measurements are absolutely not what they are seeking. 'Euphonic distortion' is one aspect. Strange frequency response anomalies is another. A bit of extra 'edge' that enhances transients adds a bit of extra dynamism to the sound.
But it can never be a universal panacea that works on all recordings. True uncompressed recordings will be over-dynamic for such a system, for example. And so this feeds into another theory of mine: that there is a two-way process of the equipment being designed to complement particular recordings and recordings being selected to sound good on the equipment. I have observed that audiophiles judge their systems based on a pretty narrow repertoire of recordings and that if other recordings sound bad then the system is just 'too revealing'!
Please feel free to demolish my theories! But please start by addressing the compression issue i.e. even if we have perfect linear playback then I claim that it must sound wrong with an artificially compressed recording (lack of dynamics, perceived frequency response errors, Fletcher Munson etc.), and most recordings *are* compressed.
I need but one angel for good sound. When my sweetie and I are enjoying music together, sitting, dancing or what have you, it can be a 2" speaker for all that it matters. The angel simply watches over to make sure I don't say something stupid.
When I am alone or getting ready for friends, I need a hardy angel to help me with the big gear as that's when the equipment matters, and my back isn't up to it anymore. A little help from above if you will.
When I am alone or getting ready for friends, I need a hardy angel to help me with the big gear as that's when the equipment matters, and my back isn't up to it anymore. A little help from above if you will.
OK, well CD's have about 100 dB of headroom, not that the typical recordings use all of it. Records have about 65. Progress? The studio makes money selling to the masses. They know 90% of their market is on an iPhone with ear buds, and most of it MP3. They produce for their market. Back before the purists banished our tone controls, we had dynamic range expanders. ( DBX, MTX, Phase Linear, Pioneer.) In some cases, they were very musical, but the quality was sorely missing. I would love to see the return. It could be done digitally as all our source material is digital. Wonder if MiniDSP can do that? On the other hand, in my car, I want it compressed to less than 40 dB. How about a 119 with distortion like a modern amp? Crank the expansion when serious listening, crank the compression for background music.
Lets face it though. Even DIY is as big as it has ever been, we are a tiny market compared to the lowest common big box denominator.
Lets face it though. Even DIY is as big as it has ever been, we are a tiny market compared to the lowest common big box denominator.
TVR comments applies to the US-A, the rest of the planet young ones are not at the same numbnut level as NA, i would estimate that decline is about a decade behind ...
That's because you are not able to get the wife's approval on an in house setup, hauling that stuff outside to annoy the neighbors everytime is back breaking 🙂
Personally, I find the recordings do work - sound convincing - , provided the system can go to realistic volumes totally cleanly - and the latter is the hard bit to get right, IME. I do it by tweaking, but I have now heard off the shelf units achieve it ...
The recent, highly compressed, pop recordings are the hardest to 'accommodate', because they put so much stress on the playback chain, particularly the power amplifier. They can very easily sound 'wrong' - if the system is almost capable, but not quite there, then they have a very aggressive, pounding, 'take no prisoners' quality to them when played at decent volume levels. But if one can get the system just a touch more refined in behaviour then things fall into place, the sound "makes sense" ...
From my angle, the good news is that the ear/brain does a brilliant job of unscrambling the 'worst' recordings, making them sound 'right', not 'wrong' ... IF you give it the right material to work with. The latter is the cleanest sound you can achieve, the least adulterated by the playback chain in any way, in any area ...
Hi fas42
But why should a recording fed through arbitrary mechanical processes to make it tolerable for playback on modest equipment (e.g. using compression) sound realistic if reproduced cleanly? I would say that by definition it cannot, whereas such a recording that has had some sort of 'reverse' processing might... but the odds against getting that reverse processing right are high. And if it works for one recording it is bound to be wrong for the next...
But why should a recording fed through arbitrary mechanical processes to make it tolerable for playback on modest equipment (e.g. using compression) sound realistic if reproduced cleanly? I would say that by definition it cannot, whereas such a recording that has had some sort of 'reverse' processing might... but the odds against getting that reverse processing right are high. And if it works for one recording it is bound to be wrong for the next...
Cheers, CopperTop ...
At a purely technical level what you're saying makes sense ... but, my personal experience says otherwise. I would concede that it may not work for all ears, but up to now those around me at the time of hearing cleaner sound agree that it 'works'.
My belief is that our hearing systems crave to hear "good sound", and will go the extra distance, so to speak, to reverse process the sound, completely unconsciously, as necessary, if enough clues are available to give the brain 'food' to work with. I have had many surprises over the years, where an el cheapo CD which I thought was pretty well doomed to always sound dismal - was played on the system when enough had been done to clean up the sound ... and the music came to life, it blossomed, subjectively. Hence my motto - there is no such thing as a bad recording ...
In essence, the brain can sift out what makes sense in the playback, and discard, bypass the negative qualities - but, if there is too great a complexity to the negative sound elements, typically by the playback chain adding its own, different distortion, then the brain gives up - all you hear is bad sound ...
At a purely technical level what you're saying makes sense ... but, my personal experience says otherwise. I would concede that it may not work for all ears, but up to now those around me at the time of hearing cleaner sound agree that it 'works'.
My belief is that our hearing systems crave to hear "good sound", and will go the extra distance, so to speak, to reverse process the sound, completely unconsciously, as necessary, if enough clues are available to give the brain 'food' to work with. I have had many surprises over the years, where an el cheapo CD which I thought was pretty well doomed to always sound dismal - was played on the system when enough had been done to clean up the sound ... and the music came to life, it blossomed, subjectively. Hence my motto - there is no such thing as a bad recording ...
In essence, the brain can sift out what makes sense in the playback, and discard, bypass the negative qualities - but, if there is too great a complexity to the negative sound elements, typically by the playback chain adding its own, different distortion, then the brain gives up - all you hear is bad sound ...
When I look at the state of the audio world today, I think it's just a completely different world...YouTube, MP3's, subwoofers, earbuds and phones.
I mean the music that is produced today is being pumped through these sub woofer car systems with the guys, meanwhile the girls are jogging listening to earbuds on their phones.
Sure there is this whole vintage/retro thing going on as a sort of hipster fad, alternative, edgy, out there thing and that seems to bring back the past stereo systems like the big turntable and vinyl records rehash. Stuff that we used without thought and were enthralled with when we were young.
If you'll recall it was all about the "stereo" for the guys back then. Big speakers or go home...hehe
And we spent a lot of time sitting in front of those and we even spent time putting together a "stereo" for our girls. Blaupunkt cassette decks with the big 6x9 triaxial speakers in the back deck with Maxell XLII mix tapes...
I just don't see that anymore with the younger crowd. The guys are all sitting on a couch playing video games with headsets on and franticallly pushing little buttons on controllers and the girls...I don't know they seem to be all texting and talking on their phones constantly. That and shopping...
Neither seem to have any interest or understanding of the HiFi world of audio that we classify as "stereo's". I don't think they really have much interest in home theater stuff. I have to think the percentage is really low.
Then there is the music itself. The new music isn't really conducive to the standard high quality stereo sound systems we grew up loving or now try to put together and enjoy. I won't even allow some of that music on my stereo....hehe
Nowadays it's all about the subwoofer's too...and they love that low end thumping and drowning out any other sound in there and yeah most of them are deaf.....certainly tone deaf.
They don't even want to listen to really good recordings that are truly musical from our day, so whats the point. From what I see it's mostly drum thump beats and modulating synth ala club dance. And I think there systems reflect that.
So I'm content with what I have to listen to for the kind of music I like and I can't be bothered worrying about where the kids are going with it...just don't see the point. And I don't listen to it and I don't' play video games 24/7 and I don't have earbuds stuck in my head.
I do have Mp3's on my own computer playing out my DAC into my ATH-M50's and that seems to be where I've been relegated to as my personal zone out retreat....I have to listen to my music alone anyway, nobody else in the house wants to hear my nice stereo system these days anyway...
The real deal going on out there is the consuming market, throw away devices that will get upgraded every month and that's the direction that makes the money....everything else is just esoteric....
Thanks for letting me vent!
🙂
I mean the music that is produced today is being pumped through these sub woofer car systems with the guys, meanwhile the girls are jogging listening to earbuds on their phones.
Sure there is this whole vintage/retro thing going on as a sort of hipster fad, alternative, edgy, out there thing and that seems to bring back the past stereo systems like the big turntable and vinyl records rehash. Stuff that we used without thought and were enthralled with when we were young.
If you'll recall it was all about the "stereo" for the guys back then. Big speakers or go home...hehe
And we spent a lot of time sitting in front of those and we even spent time putting together a "stereo" for our girls. Blaupunkt cassette decks with the big 6x9 triaxial speakers in the back deck with Maxell XLII mix tapes...
I just don't see that anymore with the younger crowd. The guys are all sitting on a couch playing video games with headsets on and franticallly pushing little buttons on controllers and the girls...I don't know they seem to be all texting and talking on their phones constantly. That and shopping...
Neither seem to have any interest or understanding of the HiFi world of audio that we classify as "stereo's". I don't think they really have much interest in home theater stuff. I have to think the percentage is really low.
Then there is the music itself. The new music isn't really conducive to the standard high quality stereo sound systems we grew up loving or now try to put together and enjoy. I won't even allow some of that music on my stereo....hehe
Nowadays it's all about the subwoofer's too...and they love that low end thumping and drowning out any other sound in there and yeah most of them are deaf.....certainly tone deaf.
They don't even want to listen to really good recordings that are truly musical from our day, so whats the point. From what I see it's mostly drum thump beats and modulating synth ala club dance. And I think there systems reflect that.
So I'm content with what I have to listen to for the kind of music I like and I can't be bothered worrying about where the kids are going with it...just don't see the point. And I don't listen to it and I don't' play video games 24/7 and I don't have earbuds stuck in my head.
I do have Mp3's on my own computer playing out my DAC into my ATH-M50's and that seems to be where I've been relegated to as my personal zone out retreat....I have to listen to my music alone anyway, nobody else in the house wants to hear my nice stereo system these days anyway...
The real deal going on out there is the consuming market, throw away devices that will get upgraded every month and that's the direction that makes the money....everything else is just esoteric....
Thanks for letting me vent!
🙂
Yes, I agree with all your post. The days of hi fi are long gone for most people. For me a good stereo in someone's living room will always represent the height of good taste, and the stuff from the 70s and 80s looked and sounded great in my opinion. The missus wants to build an extension on our house, and in my mind it all revolves around the hi fi: the extension will be built to complement some genuine 70s/80s equipment (but with concealed digital streaming options of course) and not the other way round!
I can't prove it of course, but my perception is the opposite. In my experience the equipment that can rationally claim to be 'clean' (powerful amps, active crossovers, large speakers) will often sound over-rich and un-dynamic with many recordings. (I think that I have seen reviewers of, say, Meridian equipment hint as such, for example). But play a relatively uncompressed track, and such equipment 'comes alive'. I am coming to the sad conclusion that there is no audio panacea that sounds good for all recordings and that the more un-dynamic recordings need 'scuzzing up' a little (my theory about why audiophiles love valves and horns!).
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