I have a 303 which I originally bought to be used with my NS-10M monitors, but once I tried it in my living room along with my Mission 702, I couldn't take it out 😉
Now I came across a 405-2 and 34 preamp, which I think about getting and using in my living room instead of the 303, using the 303 with the NS10M like I wanted at the first place... But is the 405-2 quite as great sounding as the 303 at all ?... The 303 is just amazing to my ears... So warm, detailed and lush.
Thanks for any advice.
Now I came across a 405-2 and 34 preamp, which I think about getting and using in my living room instead of the 303, using the 303 with the NS10M like I wanted at the first place... But is the 405-2 quite as great sounding as the 303 at all ?... The 303 is just amazing to my ears... So warm, detailed and lush.
Thanks for any advice.
I would not use a speaker like the Yamaha NS10-M for evaluating amplifiers or any sound. Just take a look at this:
No bass, a very large peak in the midrange and no driver integration in any direction!
Roger
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
No bass, a very large peak in the midrange and no driver integration in any direction!
Roger
gilwe said:
I think it depends on the 405-2 a lot. The state of caps etc. I liked the 405-2, but preferred an unmodded 405-1 (even after recapping the 405-2). However, after further modding of the 405-2 it blows the 405-1 away easily. (And anything else I have heard so far.) Assuming you want transparency, imaging, dynamics and extension in the frequency extremes. I have never heard the 303 though.
Regards
That's a good point as modding is absolutely no problem. Are you speaking about the Net-Audio mods ? Or can you please refer us to the particular mod you're talking about ?
With the NS10-M monitors there will be a risk of making odd sounding recordings. You will not hear the low bass as it is missing. You will probably like to turn down the midrange to make the sound more pleasant. Play that recording on well-balanced equipment and it will sound less good, with pumped up bass and recessed midrange.
I prefer the Keith Snook Quad 405 http://www.dc-daylight.ltd.uk/Valve-Audio-Interest/QUAD/QUAD-405-Modification/QUAD-405-Mods.html . It is a more in-depth modification than Net-Audio and Dada.
Roger
I prefer the Keith Snook Quad 405 http://www.dc-daylight.ltd.uk/Valve-Audio-Interest/QUAD/QUAD-405-Modification/QUAD-405-Mods.html . It is a more in-depth modification than Net-Audio and Dada.
Roger
gilwe said:
It's a few ones from:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/405mods4.txt
http://www.dc-daylight.ltd.uk/Valve-Audio-Interest/QUAD/QUAD-405-Modification/QUAD-405-Mods.html
And a couple of my own mods.
In short:
Total recap of all 'lytics. (And 2x capacity in power supply in my case)
More local power caps.
More local OpA power caps and bypass caps.
More current through OpA regulator zeners. (New zeners and resistors)
Different OpA.
New final dumper transistors.
Re-routing power-ground from PCB.
Also check 405 clone thread.
RogerGustavsson said:
That's what the mastering studio is there to fix! In addition to fixing the sound in other ways so it becomes close to unlistenable.. 😉
I agree that Keith is a good source, but think B. Ludwig is even better for understanding the mods. And he mentions several more interesting ones.
Well, I just got back from the guy and had the pair tested (405-2 plus a 34 pre). In short, I found it basically not interesting I'd say... It has its warmth but doesn't remind of my 303 at all. It could have just been the preamp which made it sound like that as well, but I could not test it without the preamp engaged. The more interesting news is that the fellow has a pair of original QUAD ESL-63 speakers in the basement !
He the entire setup was brought by him from London sometime in the 80s. The ESL-63's had a few elements replaced at some point, with original replacement parts of course. The guy says that as far as he recalls, there's is some kind of noise going out from one (or maybe two ?) of them, so probably they need some kind of refurbishment or fixing.
He also has the older elements packed as spare parts (dunno if they work or now).
However, he asks for about 1500$ for the entire set (405-2 + 34 + ESL63 pair + spare elements).
Should I jump over it ?! I had a listen to an old and big sized Altec pair which blew me away... should they sound just as good ?!
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/quad/hey_you/63.html
He the entire setup was brought by him from London sometime in the 80s. The ESL-63's had a few elements replaced at some point, with original replacement parts of course. The guy says that as far as he recalls, there's is some kind of noise going out from one (or maybe two ?) of them, so probably they need some kind of refurbishment or fixing.
He also has the older elements packed as spare parts (dunno if they work or now).
However, he asks for about 1500$ for the entire set (405-2 + 34 + ESL63 pair + spare elements).
Should I jump over it ?! I had a listen to an old and big sized Altec pair which blew me away... should they sound just as good ?!
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/quad/hey_you/63.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have recently listened to my Quad 306/36/FM4 combo and Quad 303/33/FM3 combo on my ESL57. I prefer the 303 on these.. ..yep I was supprissed too!
The 303s' output is capacitor coupled. Standard I think it is a 2200uF output cap.. this can influence the sound, especially with base-reflex speakers..
The ESL57 however, have a more steady high impedance in the low frequency. This makes the ESL-57 actually a very easy load to drive.. and the 303 output cap might benifit from that.
On the NS10, I wouldn't dare to guess... maybe you could buy another 303, and mod the output caps? that might be a less expensive way to try to improve you setup?
goodluck,
Thijs
The 303s' output is capacitor coupled. Standard I think it is a 2200uF output cap.. this can influence the sound, especially with base-reflex speakers..
The ESL57 however, have a more steady high impedance in the low frequency. This makes the ESL-57 actually a very easy load to drive.. and the 303 output cap might benifit from that.
On the NS10, I wouldn't dare to guess... maybe you could buy another 303, and mod the output caps? that might be a less expensive way to try to improve you setup?
goodluck,
Thijs
Patrik Floding said:
I have had some contact with Bernd Ludwig over the years. It seems that Keith Snook has taken a few more steps in his modification, at least removing a lot of parts that are not needed and the use MJ15003 is more elegant than Bernd's multi-MJL3281A. (Yes, I have MJ15003 as well as MJL3281 in my drawers...)
Patrik, you are not familiar with PCB CAD programs, like Altium? I have a file from Zsolt Vadaszi that I would like to modify.
Roger
Roger,
I don't think I'll ever mod as much as Keith has done on the original board. I'll stay with the inverting input, for a start. Also, the 405-2 has some changes already that Keith implements.
In addition it sounds superb already, and I'm not stripping things off just for the heck of it! 😉
I would like to do an all-out 405-3 some time in the future however! (Bigger PCB, bigger box, bigger power, more drivers, all known good mods.) But no, I don't have any PCB CAD program. Might get one if it's cheap enough. The layout doesn't look that complicated.
But first I'll have to mod the existing 405-2 some more, and learn a lot more.
Regards
I don't think I'll ever mod as much as Keith has done on the original board. I'll stay with the inverting input, for a start. Also, the 405-2 has some changes already that Keith implements.
In addition it sounds superb already, and I'm not stripping things off just for the heck of it! 😉
I would like to do an all-out 405-3 some time in the future however! (Bigger PCB, bigger box, bigger power, more drivers, all known good mods.) But no, I don't have any PCB CAD program. Might get one if it's cheap enough. The layout doesn't look that complicated.
But first I'll have to mod the existing 405-2 some more, and learn a lot more.
Regards
tschrama said:
That was my initial thought.... Or maybe just go back to an integrated amplifier for my listening setup and use the (existing) 303 for my studio ?...
What bothers me is that I couldn't hear anything too special with the 405-2/34 setup... Is it at the preamp actually ? In other word - should I get them anyway assuming that the 405-2 on its on can really sound amazing ?
And how about the ESL63 ? Should I grab them ?
gilwe said:
An unmodded 34 preamp is likely to sound a bit tired. It probably never was the most transparent pre amp anyway (so I've been told). They rarely were in those days. Of course, the 34 can be modded too:
http://www.dc-daylight.ltd.uk/Valve-Audio-Interest/QUAD/QUAD-34-Modification/QUAD-34-Mods.html
Personally I use a Sugden Headmaster as a pre amp, and find it excellent. Better as a pre than as a headphone amp, I think.
The 405-2 probably won't sound "amazing" to most audiophiles before modding. However, I think that modding the 405-2 is well worth the effort, and money -if you have the time to spare. But I'm biased.. 😉
So overall, would most of you prefer a 303 anyway ?.... (modded or not)
And how about the ESL63...? Do they worth the effort ? as far as I understand a few elements have been replaced in the past (arching ?)
and at least on of the speakers has some kind of a noise problem... What do you say ?
And how about the ESL63...? Do they worth the effort ? as far as I understand a few elements have been replaced in the past (arching ?)
and at least on of the speakers has some kind of a noise problem... What do you say ?
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