How does this sound?

[Kilowatt]

For my home stereo system, I'm wondering what I should use for speakers. Here's what I've come up with:

For each channel: a Leach amp powering 2 x 12" Sony Xplods in series (I'm actually going to sell those and buy something better, but it's basically the same idea); 2 x Vifa/Scan Speak 5" wideband drivers in parallel powered by my modified Project3A circuit, about 50-100W, or whatever I need; and a Pioneer AHE60-51F 3.5" horn tweeter, with about a 15W amp. What do you think? I was wondering if I should get 2 tweeters per channel, or just one.

Xovers: 200-250Hz and 8-10kHz

 

[Bill Fitzpatrick]

What's the point with the cheap horn tweeter?

 

[Kilowatt]

It doesn't need to be cheap. What horn tweeter should I use?

 

[Zappa]

Is horn tweeter is really requied here?

 

[Duo]

Well, I guess it really depends on what your preferences are for tweeters. My speakers have horns, they may be altec's or onkyo's
but I'm not sure... They're probably something better. It also depends on how you like your music to sound, horns are great for people who want very high definition in their symbols and percussion or just clean strings horns and vocals with bright tone.
Also, horns are notably hard to fry compared to simple dome or disc tweeters when stressed, which they shouldn't be anyway!
If you want omnidirectional sound, horns aren't very good since the send the sound in a very directed area. Anyway, try to listen to some examples of horns and domes and see what you think

 

[Bill Fitzpatrick]

kilowatt:

I agree with Zappa. Lose the horn. Get yourself one of the better domes. Forget using two tweeters. And, consider lowering the crossover to the tweeter unless you aren't concerned with off axis response. I take it you are tri-amping?

 

[Kilowatt]

I mainly wanted horns because of their increased sensitivity. I suppose I could also use Vifa domes, but I'd need maybe 4 per side. These are only for 8kHz, or maybe even 10kHz and up (the Vifa/scan speak widebands are rated up to 12kHz), so they won't need much SPL at all.

I've heard that horns fatigue listeners because of their spiky response. That would be a down side.

Yup, I'm tri-amping. How about 6kHz instead. With domes I would need more than one wouldn't I? I will use domes anyway.

P.S. probably no amps at all, if the fixit happens to be my former next-door neighbor/repair-man.

 

[planet10]

8-10 KHz is a little high for a pair of 5"s to go without getting comb filtering (loss of focus) from unless you use them bipolar. With the woof to extended mid XO at 200-250 you could probably get away with a smaller driver -- there are some pretty good 3 & 4" drivers out their. 2 tweeters at almost any frequency will have the same problem.

I have been trialling a number of Ts on my bi-polar BD-Pipes XOed at about 10k where the 4"s start to roll off naturally.

All the ones that made the cut were alnico but 1, some horns, domes, and a cone... the best match so far is the little 2" open back cone. I just put another set of cones on to-nite -- little alnico thimble tweeters, not as good as the ones that just came off, but in contention on early listening.

Of the horns, the shorter ones were a bit better -- i'm thinking because the acoustic centre was closer to that of the FRs.

My BD-Pipes fit into the Frugal-phile(tm) category (but very musical & satisfying none-the-less) and my experiments should only act as an example.

Conventional wisdom would have you put a dome on the top, but a horn with its narrower radiation pattern often will fit better dispersion-wise with a small cone run all the way up. The Fostex FT17H would be worthy of consideration as a better horn than the Pioneer you are considering -- alnico & some 98+ dB efficient. Solid enuff to use with a 1st order XO too.

dave

 

[Kilowatt]

With the 5s, I suppose I could get away with lower than 200Hz. If 8k is a little high for them, I can drop to 6k, I think that's what I'll do.

I have other motivation for using those Vifa 5s: I am going to use those same speakers (and lots of them ) for my 7200W system, so that way I won't have to buy as many speakers, and I'll get a chance to try them out before buying all 48 of them for the big system.

"2 tweeters at almost any frequency will have the same problem."
Will I run into focus problems if I use more than one tweeter/channel? I've seen boxes with 4 domes.

I was also looking at some various Audax domes. I'll probably end up using those. No horns.

P.S. I'm using a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley Xover.

 

[planet10]

With the 5s, I suppose I could get away with lower than 200Hz. If 8k is a little high for them, I can drop to 6k, I think that's what I'll do.

I've been thinking about a bipolar MTM using the 4". I figured i could go as high as 5k in a stretch before running into too much comb filtering.

I have other motivation for using those Vifa 5s: I am going to use those same speakers (and lots of them ) for my 7200W system, so that way I won't have to buy as many speakers, and I'll get a chance to try them out before buying all 48 of them for the big system.

Which 5"? P13s? Some sort of line array?

"2 tweeters at almost any frequency will have the same problem."
Will I run into focus problems if I use more than one tweeter/channel? I've seen boxes with 4 domes.

It is one of those situations where 1 works or a whole bunch (floor-to-ceiling as togther as possible) works. I think 4 would be a mess.

I was also looking at some various Audax domes. I'll probably end up using those. No horns.

The F series are nice -- they have 1 that is almost just the dome that i think is really interesting.

dave

 

[Kilowatt]

Ok, looks like I'll either have to use something else or drop to around 1k. I looked at the response curve, it started getting messy around 1k, really messy at 5k. The speaker I'm referring to is Parts Express #299-246. I think I'm going to have to find something better. I was going to use 48 of them in a huge 3x16 array for my big system, but I don't think I will, I will find something that I can cross over higher.

I'm going to have to lower the bottom Xover down to maybe 120-150Hz, because the subs will drown everything else out if I don't, now that I will be using less sensitive speakers for the upper freqs.

What would you use for mids? I was looking at Tang Band ones. Their response is a bit spiky all through the spectrum, compared to some, but they are pretty consistant all the way up to 10kHz.

For bass, I've got 120W into 2 x car subs; for mid, I've got up to 200W; for treb, I've got as much as needed.

I think I will use Audaxes for tweeters, like a TM025F7 or something, I'll do some shopping around.

One other thing. Just why is it that 2 tweeters per side will sound like crap? That's not the case with other drivers, why tweeters. I've listened to a system that has 4 domes/side. It didn't sound too bad. Not great, but not bad.

 

[planet10]

One other thing. Just why is it that 2 tweeters per side will sound like crap?

I didn't go quite that far. I said you would get comb filtering, and would lose focus. Perhaps this pic will help:

this is when the wavelength is 1.5 times the driver spacing (d). As the frequency goes up and the wavelength gets smaller than d the white "coherent" zone completely disappears.

That is why my preference is to use 2 drivers in a bipole.

dave

 

[planet10]

I'm going to have to lower the bottom Xover down to maybe 120-150Hz, because the subs will drown everything else out if I don't, now that I will be using less sensitive speakers for the upper freqs.

With an active XO why do you care, just turn down the level of the bass amp.

What would you use for mids? I was looking at Tang Band ones. Their response is a bit spiky all through the spectrum, compared to some, but they are pretty consistant all the way up to 10kHz.

Some of the 3 and 4" tagbands have been getting very good press. Here is a kool box with 3" (i think). (Watch out the pic is big).

Fostex also makes some awefully nice FRs that make excellent mids. FE103, FE108, FE83. And they have a new line making it to North America. Some with the banana pulp cones & the in & out surround.

[IMGDEAD]http://www.fostex.co.jp/jpn/INTRO/fe168es/FE168ES.jpg[/IMGDEAD]

dave

 

[Kilowatt]

I see what you mean. From your pic, it looks like it woul be OK if they were angled away from each other. Maybe I'll just do a bipole.

Thanks.

"With an active XO why do you care, just turn down the level of the bass amp."

What fun is it to turn stuff down? Ok, I will be turning the mid and treb amps down, but only to stay within the speakers' Xmaxes. I will turn the bass amp down rather than raise the Xover only if I don't like the sound of those subs trying to go higher (they're not exactly what we call hifi).

It looks like I may use Tang Band 4s. The 3s don't have enough power handling.

What are those boxes made out of?!! It looks like either metal or mica.

 

[planet10]

What are those boxes made out of?!! It looks like either metal or mica.

Welded Aluminum sheet -- he don't think he said how thick.

Tempts me to build a speaker with some 1/2" wall 8" square aluminum tubing i got for chassis.

dave

 

[Kilowatt]

That would sure match nicely with aluminum cone drivers, like Audiobahn ALUM and AWT series car subs!

 

[Keld]

Hi

Tempts me to build a speaker with some 1/2" wall 8" square aluminum tubing

Square Tubular Bells

Please, please build them and let us know how they sound, it sure would be nice having a pair of alu-speakers.

Keld.