I built a custom Jim Holtz Statements speakers a long time ago and decided to use them as monitors for home studio but I get bad sound only when playing my synth. I know the problem isn't with any other part in the chain other than the speakers or amp because I can play synth just fine from an headphone amp+headphones but on the other hand the speakers and power amp sound fine when playing through them recorded music. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong and suspects somehow artifacts are created because of the specifics way of the set up and location.
I suspect your synthesizer is grossly overdriving your amplifier (or any preamp/mixer you insert between Synth and Amp)
Try to lower its output until distortion disappears.
What synth ( reference)? How it is wired? Synth out directly to power amp?
Historicaly synth output level is 10v pk/pk ( +5v/-5v, it comes from modular synth module 'standard'). This equal to around 3v rms.
In term of standard it equal +12dbu.
Hifi equipment is usually 2v pk/pk ( ~0,7v rms) in dbu this is equal to 0dbu.
Your synth have the potential to overdrive the amp input by 12db as there is a mismatch in voltage reference used : as JmFahey said turn down the output level on your synth.
Historicaly synth output level is 10v pk/pk ( +5v/-5v, it comes from modular synth module 'standard'). This equal to around 3v rms.
In term of standard it equal +12dbu.
Hifi equipment is usually 2v pk/pk ( ~0,7v rms) in dbu this is equal to 0dbu.
Your synth have the potential to overdrive the amp input by 12db as there is a mismatch in voltage reference used : as JmFahey said turn down the output level on your synth.
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It's the other way around... I have to dial up the amp to 11 o'clock for it to sound normal volume, both in HP and power amps, while everything in software indicates it's the normal listening volumes (default settings). Could it be the power amp gets saturated a lot more easily than the HP amp? I'll try to increase the software output level to see if it makes any difference...
Anyway, I'm surprised how difficult it is to set up an audio chain!
It's not if you have reference level clearly defined.
So it's not a synth but a virtual instrument?
Please give vst name, host software ( if any - stand alone mode?- your DAW, soundcard, driver used ( Asio or not)...
'Default setting' or blank preset patch might not gives any level at all in some cases.
You have your gain staging wrong, probably within your Daw ( and maybe vst instrument).
If there is artefact then other culprit than just level would have to be investigated too ( it might be your buffer size within your driver which is set too low).
So it's not a synth but a virtual instrument?
Please give vst name, host software ( if any - stand alone mode?- your DAW, soundcard, driver used ( Asio or not)...
'Default setting' or blank preset patch might not gives any level at all in some cases.
You have your gain staging wrong, probably within your Daw ( and maybe vst instrument).
If there is artefact then other culprit than just level would have to be investigated too ( it might be your buffer size within your driver which is set too low).
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I use Pianoteq and Garritan and with both have a similar result. Both software are self-hosted. Soundcard is Focusrite Solo (3rd gen).
I tried something a bit different now: I raised the volume in the software to the max (from 0db to 13db) and dialed down the power amp to 9o'clock and it still sounds the same! (power amp still sounds bad, hp amp still sounds good)
I tried something a bit different now: I raised the volume in the software to the max (from 0db to 13db) and dialed down the power amp to 9o'clock and it still sounds the same! (power amp still sounds bad, hp amp still sounds good)
What driver do you use? How have you setup your buffer size?
Is your hp amp the one of your soundcard?
Is your soundcard plugged directly into your amp ( reference please)? If yes what kind of cable have you used?
Is your hp amp the one of your soundcard?
Is your soundcard plugged directly into your amp ( reference please)? If yes what kind of cable have you used?
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I don't understand how these matter? I already eliminated anything in the software by using the headphone amp. It goes to the power amp + speakers.
The driver is ASIO. Buffer size is 64.
I use the same soundcard, the Focusrite, for both HP and Power amps. It's plugged to USB, Windows 10.
The driver is ASIO. Buffer size is 64.
I use the same soundcard, the Focusrite, for both HP and Power amps. It's plugged to USB, Windows 10.
These mater to identify where the issue is happening: you have clean sound on focusrite hp? Yes then it's not a driver ( or config) issue with your soundcard.
You use asio, then issues related to windows 'taking care' of your audio are not the culprit.
Your soundcard output use symetric outputs which 'accept' TS ( asymetrical jack)... But nothing tell you your output stage will not be bothered if one of the output is grounded ( or not)... Yamaha gear was painful about this for example... and this is related to the type of cable you use and how it's 'done' in practice.
Debugging is done by step, isolating the 'coarse' concerns to go to more advanced one until you find the culprit. This ask for a clear description of setup and a clear description of the issue.
But if it bother you this way fine, makes your own investigation... but it doesn't seems to be effective as you ask for help... 🙂 😉
You use asio, then issues related to windows 'taking care' of your audio are not the culprit.
Your soundcard output use symetric outputs which 'accept' TS ( asymetrical jack)... But nothing tell you your output stage will not be bothered if one of the output is grounded ( or not)... Yamaha gear was painful about this for example... and this is related to the type of cable you use and how it's 'done' in practice.
Debugging is done by step, isolating the 'coarse' concerns to go to more advanced one until you find the culprit. This ask for a clear description of setup and a clear description of the issue.
But if it bother you this way fine, makes your own investigation... but it doesn't seems to be effective as you ask for help... 🙂 😉
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Well I don't have exactly noise, it sounds more like slightly "pixelated" through the speakers.
Also note that when I play music from foobar it sounds perfectly normal.
I use the same rca L+R cables for speakers and hp.
So how can I debug this further? I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing wrong.... please help!
Also note that when I play music from foobar it sounds perfectly normal.
I use the same rca L+R cables for speakers and hp.
So how can I debug this further? I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing wrong.... please help!
We are trying too! 😉
Pixelated sound: to me it is either a wrong setup with FS ( sampling freq: 44,1khz, 48khz,...) or a too low buffer: check what your soundcard fs is and what is your vst setting. If there is a mismatch it could be this.
Try to rise buffer size. 64 is small. Try 128/256/512. The first one which play without glitch is the one.
If any of this altered the issue then it might be your cable and here pictures could help.
Do you have a multimeter with 'continuity check' ( diode mode)?
One last 'dumb' question: is your volume at max ( physical knob) on your Focusrite?
Pixelated sound: to me it is either a wrong setup with FS ( sampling freq: 44,1khz, 48khz,...) or a too low buffer: check what your soundcard fs is and what is your vst setting. If there is a mismatch it could be this.
Try to rise buffer size. 64 is small. Try 128/256/512. The first one which play without glitch is the one.
If any of this altered the issue then it might be your cable and here pictures could help.
Do you have a multimeter with 'continuity check' ( diode mode)?
One last 'dumb' question: is your volume at max ( physical knob) on your Focusrite?
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I tried changing the buffer size and sampling freq... makes no difference.
The best way I could describe the sound is as "wobbly", it's almost like it's going in and out of tune. Maybe it should sound like that through the speakers? Who knows... Could it just be that room and placement acoustics cause that? I even tried to change the pan width to test that.
I tested a different cable. Thanks for the tip! It didn't make a difference though...
My multimere has a diode symbol on the dial so I guess it has diode mode.
The best way I could describe the sound is as "wobbly", it's almost like it's going in and out of tune. Maybe it should sound like that through the speakers? Who knows... Could it just be that room and placement acoustics cause that? I even tried to change the pan width to test that.
I tested a different cable. Thanks for the tip! It didn't make a difference though...
My multimere has a diode symbol on the dial so I guess it has diode mode.
OK, I know it sounds crazy, but I tried recording myself and playing midi file through the speakers to listen to myself playing the same but sitting in a farther position and it definitely sounds better. Still quiet, but I can dial up to 10-11am and it sounds pretty good. So it's just a subjective matter? A perspective? I'm still confused because I use default settings in Pianoteq and it also requires dialing up the volume quite a bit.
Note: the Statements are placed below the synth, so when I'm playing it I definitely don't sit in the same position where I listen to it playing music...
I think that could be it. The perspective makes a great enough difference with these speakers so that it no longer sounds to what I expect from a piano in current placement... Looks like I'll have to just replace the synth with something designed for a player's perspective...
Thanks a lot!
I think that could be it. The perspective makes a great enough difference with these speakers so that it no longer sounds to what I expect from a piano in current placement... Looks like I'll have to just replace the synth with something designed for a player's perspective...
Thanks a lot!
Thats fine, just to see if the distortion is still there. Or pick up a pair of bookshelf speakers from Craigslist or garage sale. Just trying to eliminate all possibilities.
IF the power amp were saturated it would be earsplitting loud ... which it is not.
SO you are clipping something before it.
In the Analog world where I come from, typically signal clips when it reaches and tries to surpass rail voltages, either at preamp or power amp levels; in the Digital World there is a similar problem, signal tries to a chive a value beyond what´s possible, something like that was hinted above by krivium, you are setting some levels wrong.
Using default values does not necessarily guarantee compatibility,
You are doing the exact opposite of what I suggested (and is standard practice) and complain "it doesn´t work".
Why am I not surprised?
That, besides not following krivium digital setup suggestions.
Thanks but looks like I "sorta" sorted it out. I think it's just the positioning.
I looked at the software to see clipping so pretty sure there is none. Most software would show a volume bar turned to red when crossing 100%.
I never imagined the audio mixing world is so complex...
Digital world ( not mixing, it's even different!) Is not complicated but it require some basic knowledge and the learning curve can be steep... it's not very different than a typical acoustic instrument: do you remember the first time you've been in front of a keyboard? How interesting it is but how frustrating at the same time?
Well digital instruments are the same but they'll require a purely technical approach as first step in order to have a 'stable' instrument before even thinking to play it.
Computer interface never been thoughts about to be a musical instrument and technology to make this instruments generate sound or communicate are not very inspiring either... but there is no way out.
Ok, so now how can you be sure that there is nothing clipping within your software? Stand alone application are unreliable about level indication ( each developper have his own view of what an indicator should be ( most of the time a Christmas tree making a lot of light and colors...as human being are visual by nature they like blinking things) and how to implement it.
I don't know the soft you use but have a bit of experience with them (for a long time now) and don't trust anything from a digital instrument ( except from Kurzweil and Emu which labeled volume in db through their OS) as it is supposed to be a creative instrument not an analysis tool.
I would be even surprised it's an issue with the positioning of your loudspeakers. I mean it might be you are out of coverage of mid or high range, but this is not how i would describe the effect ( wobling... this i can gives you audio example of what it means to me though!).
I can see other reason for the level issue: you talked about a 'synth' driving your software in midi. Is it a synthesizer, a master keyboard, a digital piano?
You could face an issue with the curve produced by the MIDI output of your keyboard which is a mismatch with the one the software is awaiting...
The 'wobling' you ear could too come from a bad controler on your 'synth'/master keyboard ( like modwheel or a fader or knobs) outputing a continous and random flow of value of a midi CC ( continous controller) which could be assigned to a lfo or other treatments ( pitch, cutoff of filters, amplitude enveloppe,... all this could cause a 'wobble' sound outcome).
There is a lot of place where issue could happen... and why we ask for a COMPLETE DESCRIPTION of the gear used ( including OS of your computer, model of synth/keyboard, Vst instruments, cable, amp reference, loudspeaker,... everything!).
And from there then trying every steps from installation of software, to how are configured your keyboard for midi, driver set up, etc,etc,....
So first i would draw a sketch of your installation. Nothing fancy, just a handdrawned thing or if you plan to share here a nice 'paint' artwork.
This will help to identify all places where things could go wrong to define the steps to check ( and help you understand your instrument too).
Look at the end of this message there is example of what i have in mind ( was produced on paint XP! 🙂 ) .
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...under-development.383581/page-12#post-6971611