A little while ago I finished my active, sealed box Satori system at age 16. I obviously got a lot of great feedback, seriously, these speakers are amazing. But I also got a lot of "angry" people saying I shouldn't have gone to the top on my first try. But though I think this system is good enough for it to be worthy of being sold at Chattelin Audio Systems here in The Hague, for me, it far from the top. So, because I just can't stop thinking about the next great thing and really like designing this stuff, I'm already working on my concept of the speakers I know for sure will be standing in my (living)room within 10 years.
It has to be a D'Appolito. Heaving heard the way my current speakers image with the midrange on top and the tweeter at neck-height. I can't stop fantasizing about how well a D'Appolito with the tweeter at perfect ear/eye-height (1,05 m) would image. I wanted to use two SB-Acoustics Satori MR16P-4's and Scan-Speak Revelator D2908/714000. For bass, I want to go bigger, with opposite side-mounted (sub)woofers. First I thought of using four Scan-Speak Revelator 28W/4878T00 in a 95 L sealed box would be good. With one pair mounted at 40 cm height from the floor and the other pair 120 cm height from the floor. This way, the bass waves would be nice and spreader over the height of the room. So there will be minimal time issues with sealing-reflections and the waves will start to move as one big wall, instead of a bubble, like with a line source and imaging in the lower mid bass will stay preserved, which is required since the MR16P-4's can only be crossed to 250 Hz at their lowest.
The thing is though. Housing these woofers in this fashion would require a huge enclosure. 1,6 m high by 0,35 m wide by 0,575 m deep. This on itself isn't that much of a problem. What is a problem is that it's wasting space. These enclosure would literally be twice bigger than the required volume. Like 186 L net., excluding midrange chamber and bracing etc.. Which I think is just too stupid.
So I wanted to ditch the upper subs and take one pair of 32W/4878T00's at the bottom instead. This wouldn't require a stupid overly-large cabinet and would save quite some money as well, which is nice since I'm very likely to build these some day. Though, this would not have the bass-imaging. So it will have to be crossed lower, but the MR16P-4's can't be. I also don't want to make the system a 4-way since it will be much more expensive and not only in drivers, but also in the front-end. There's no 4-way plate amp on the market so I'll have to use external DSP's and amps which makes the entire front-end not only very expensive but also complicated.
So I'll need different mids. The paper Seas Excel drivers look pretty good but I don't think they really suit my taste. They're more towards the neutral side of things. I rather like a full, deep, snappy and dynamic sound. The Scan-Speak Revelator midranges are pretty nice but they can't be crossed as high as I would like and though sound-wise they are obviously extremely good, I don't think they can match the transient response of the Satori's. The Illuminators, same story as the Seas Excel, don't really suit my taste. So then there's the Ellipticor. They do seem to check all the boxes, extremely low distortion and useable to low crossover-points, extremely fast transient response, can be crossed relatively high, to 2,5 kHz according to Vance Dickason but used to even 3 kHz by Troels Gravessen. And Troels Gravessen also describes them as probably the most dynamic and overal best sounding drivers he has ever heard, and also nice and full.
Though, with that very weird/special motor design, I kind of expect the Ellipticor to really have it's own kind of sound. Do you think it will match well with the beryllium Revelator? I don't want to use the Ellipticor tweeter since I know I like beryllium best.
Maybe in those ~10 years SB-Acoustics as come out with a new line of Satori with lower lower-end distortion or, even better, Scan-Speak will integrate their Ellipticor in other series drivers as well, because honestly, sound goes first but I think the Ellipticor look ugly as hell, let alone combined with other non-Ellipticor drivers.
What are your suggestions?
It has to be a D'Appolito. Heaving heard the way my current speakers image with the midrange on top and the tweeter at neck-height. I can't stop fantasizing about how well a D'Appolito with the tweeter at perfect ear/eye-height (1,05 m) would image. I wanted to use two SB-Acoustics Satori MR16P-4's and Scan-Speak Revelator D2908/714000. For bass, I want to go bigger, with opposite side-mounted (sub)woofers. First I thought of using four Scan-Speak Revelator 28W/4878T00 in a 95 L sealed box would be good. With one pair mounted at 40 cm height from the floor and the other pair 120 cm height from the floor. This way, the bass waves would be nice and spreader over the height of the room. So there will be minimal time issues with sealing-reflections and the waves will start to move as one big wall, instead of a bubble, like with a line source and imaging in the lower mid bass will stay preserved, which is required since the MR16P-4's can only be crossed to 250 Hz at their lowest.
The thing is though. Housing these woofers in this fashion would require a huge enclosure. 1,6 m high by 0,35 m wide by 0,575 m deep. This on itself isn't that much of a problem. What is a problem is that it's wasting space. These enclosure would literally be twice bigger than the required volume. Like 186 L net., excluding midrange chamber and bracing etc.. Which I think is just too stupid.
So I wanted to ditch the upper subs and take one pair of 32W/4878T00's at the bottom instead. This wouldn't require a stupid overly-large cabinet and would save quite some money as well, which is nice since I'm very likely to build these some day. Though, this would not have the bass-imaging. So it will have to be crossed lower, but the MR16P-4's can't be. I also don't want to make the system a 4-way since it will be much more expensive and not only in drivers, but also in the front-end. There's no 4-way plate amp on the market so I'll have to use external DSP's and amps which makes the entire front-end not only very expensive but also complicated.
So I'll need different mids. The paper Seas Excel drivers look pretty good but I don't think they really suit my taste. They're more towards the neutral side of things. I rather like a full, deep, snappy and dynamic sound. The Scan-Speak Revelator midranges are pretty nice but they can't be crossed as high as I would like and though sound-wise they are obviously extremely good, I don't think they can match the transient response of the Satori's. The Illuminators, same story as the Seas Excel, don't really suit my taste. So then there's the Ellipticor. They do seem to check all the boxes, extremely low distortion and useable to low crossover-points, extremely fast transient response, can be crossed relatively high, to 2,5 kHz according to Vance Dickason but used to even 3 kHz by Troels Gravessen. And Troels Gravessen also describes them as probably the most dynamic and overal best sounding drivers he has ever heard, and also nice and full.
Though, with that very weird/special motor design, I kind of expect the Ellipticor to really have it's own kind of sound. Do you think it will match well with the beryllium Revelator? I don't want to use the Ellipticor tweeter since I know I like beryllium best.
Maybe in those ~10 years SB-Acoustics as come out with a new line of Satori with lower lower-end distortion or, even better, Scan-Speak will integrate their Ellipticor in other series drivers as well, because honestly, sound goes first but I think the Ellipticor look ugly as hell, let alone combined with other non-Ellipticor drivers.
What are your suggestions?
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1st: it's a good idea to have the woofer extend to about 400 Hz relative to floor-bounce and a fairly close location to the floor. It sounds "wonky" to try and correct for floor-bounce with eq..
-with that in mind..
I'd do it with these drivers:
Tweeter: VIAWAVE GRT-145
Midrange: Eton 3-212/C8/25 HEX Symphony II
Woofer: Visaton TIW 250 XS - 8 Ohm
-that should be a higher clarity result than what you are suggesting ..and with good "tone" which is a rare combination.
-with that in mind..
I'd do it with these drivers:
Tweeter: VIAWAVE GRT-145
Midrange: Eton 3-212/C8/25 HEX Symphony II
Woofer: Visaton TIW 250 XS - 8 Ohm
-that should be a higher clarity result than what you are suggesting ..and with good "tone" which is a rare combination.
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Wow, that Eton driver looks amazing. Wasn't aware of it. You've given me something to aim for in the future. Thank you.
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You're welcome! 🙂
The Eton looks to be similar to their earlier magnesium design - which measured quite well (..particularly non-linear distortion):
ETON 3-400/A8/25Mg | HiFiCompass
Its just the voice coil that is elliptical and it has its benefits.
PS: D`Appolito is originally meant a symmetrical construction using 3rd order slopes. Not every MTM is a D`Appolito, although later in his research, Joseph started using 4th order crossovers.
On the proposed design, read the articles on diffraction (you can buy AES papers or just browse on here), on the requirements of a symmetrical design and why initially it required 3rd order slopes, on the drawbacks of a symmetrical design (look at the constraints on crossover specifically) and merge the info. You will rework it 🙂
Besides, side firing woofers have some specifics to be implemented and will limit the type of rooms where these speakers can be used at their upmost potential.
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I've finished the design. The upper 75 cm is still sealed of of the bass chamber and empty except for the midrange chamber but it's much more practical in size, it's pretty much like my current speakers but a little bigger in al dimensions.
Here is a list of drivers I think might have potential in order from which I think I'm most likely to actually use to least likely. There's also some driver on it that probably don't suit my taste at all, like the poly Eton drivers, but I put them on the list anyway because they have good potential.
Tweeters:
soft:
-Scan-Speak Revelator D2904/710003
-Scan-Speak Ellipticor D3404/552000
-Seas Excel T29CF002
-Scan-Speak Illuminator D3004/662000
beryllium:
-Scan-Speak Revelator D2908/714000
-Scan-Speak Illuminator D3004/664000
-SB-Acoustics Satori TW29BN-B
ceramic:
-Accuton C25-6-158
Midranges/woofers:
paper:
-2: Scan-Speak Ellipticor 18WE/4542T00
-2: SB-Acoustics MR16P-4
-2: Scan-Speak Revelator 15M/4531K00
-2: Scan-Speak Illuminator 15WU/4741T00
-2: Seas Excel W18NX001
-2: Eton Orchestra 7-512/C8/32
poly:
-2: Eton Symphony 2 7-312/C8/32
-2: Eton Symphony 2 5-312/C8/25
metal:
-2: Seas Excel W15CY001
ceramic:
-Accuton C90-6-724
Subwoofers:
-Scan-Speak Revelator 32W/4878T00
The reason there are no Eton Arcosia drivers in the metal midranges/woofers list is because there is no fitting model in the series. It's either a big 7", which will only go to 1,7 kHz at it's highest, or a tiny 4" which will have too much distortion in the lower mid bass which is were they will have to be crossed, and I'm pretty sure such tiny cone area won't give that nice full, thick, deep sound that makes you feel Michael Bublé's or Barry Whites voice at it's best I'm looking for. For these same reasons, the Scan-Speak Illuminator 12MU isn't on the list either. Though I'm sure these are great drivers in 4-way systems. But then still I doubt if the Arcosia drivers suit my taste.
Here is a list of drivers I think might have potential in order from which I think I'm most likely to actually use to least likely. There's also some driver on it that probably don't suit my taste at all, like the poly Eton drivers, but I put them on the list anyway because they have good potential.
Tweeters:
soft:
-Scan-Speak Revelator D2904/710003
-Scan-Speak Ellipticor D3404/552000
-Seas Excel T29CF002
-Scan-Speak Illuminator D3004/662000
beryllium:
-Scan-Speak Revelator D2908/714000
-Scan-Speak Illuminator D3004/664000
-SB-Acoustics Satori TW29BN-B
ceramic:
-Accuton C25-6-158
Midranges/woofers:
paper:
-2: Scan-Speak Ellipticor 18WE/4542T00
-2: SB-Acoustics MR16P-4
-2: Scan-Speak Revelator 15M/4531K00
-2: Scan-Speak Illuminator 15WU/4741T00
-2: Seas Excel W18NX001
-2: Eton Orchestra 7-512/C8/32
poly:
-2: Eton Symphony 2 7-312/C8/32
-2: Eton Symphony 2 5-312/C8/25
metal:
-2: Seas Excel W15CY001
ceramic:
-Accuton C90-6-724
Subwoofers:
-Scan-Speak Revelator 32W/4878T00
The reason there are no Eton Arcosia drivers in the metal midranges/woofers list is because there is no fitting model in the series. It's either a big 7", which will only go to 1,7 kHz at it's highest, or a tiny 4" which will have too much distortion in the lower mid bass which is were they will have to be crossed, and I'm pretty sure such tiny cone area won't give that nice full, thick, deep sound that makes you feel Michael Bublé's or Barry Whites voice at it's best I'm looking for. For these same reasons, the Scan-Speak Illuminator 12MU isn't on the list either. Though I'm sure these are great drivers in 4-way systems. But then still I doubt if the Arcosia drivers suit my taste.
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-the Accuton line - they will provide you with something "more".
Troels mentioned the Scan Speak 13" currently has a prototype with a higher eff. design (..which tends to be more "dynamic" sounding), that might become available and might be worth waiting for.
Here it is:
Ellipticor-3
Troels mentioned the Scan Speak 13" currently has a prototype with a higher eff. design (..which tends to be more "dynamic" sounding), that might become available and might be worth waiting for.
Here it is:
Ellipticor-3
I know Accuton drivers are quite undeniably the highest quality in both build and sound with blistering fast transient response, well controlled cone breakup and superior detail from that hard cone but what is their sound signature? I would love to use Accuton mids because on paper they're pretty much the best out there and I'm not worried about them sounding "weird" in combination with other normal drivers like I am with the Ellipticors to be honest. Does anyone have an idea of their sound signature? I have the impassion they can have a very nice snap in them and obviously offer clarity, detail and transparency out of this world but can they also sound a little deep and perhaps full with the right driver models?
I am extremely happy with the Satori MR16P-4. It will match up to just about any tweeter and woofer combination available. Very few drivers sound this good regardless of price range or design/type. Believe it or not, better than even Eton and Accuton in many respects. They can go quite low and quite high in frequency (both); (ie, very wide-band). Seriously worth considering.
-"deep" and "full" are just functions of freq. response, and as you'd expect: you can get that depending on the model and how you "work" the freq. response. Ironically though, because of your design choice you'll likely have some perceived "suck-out" because of floor-bounce vs. distance from the loudspeaker - which works against this sort of character.
"Smooth" with high clarity - sort of a "damped electrostat" sound: "planar'esq" with greater "dynamics".
As far as "snap" - depends on the motor force and the mms. More efficient versions will generally get you that.
Other than the Accuton drivers..
This would be an excellent combination for your design:
Note: this is specifically with the idea of a lower freq. crossover (around 1.5 kHz) between the tweeter and mid. (for more uniform polars)..
Tweeter:
BlieSMa T34B-4
The tweeter is unique: a larger Sd Beryllium tweeter without any fabric-outer-"ring" contribution, and lots of xmax (for a tweeter).
I've never heard this tweeter in any design, but it's a Be tweeter (..far more so than Scan Speak's or SB's).
Midrange:
Morel TSCM 634
I've heard this driver (or similar driver) in a few designs. It's special sounding, as special as Accuton, if a bit different depending on application and loading.
BlieSMa T34B-4 | HiFiCompass
while not the Titanium VC of the midrange..
Morel SCM634 | HiFiCompass
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I've used the TSCW636, and I agree- it's midrange prowess combined with its also very low HD are great qualities for a final/reference design.
I used a TLabs magnesia dome with mine, and it is amazing.
Wolf
I used a TLabs magnesia dome with mine, and it is amazing.
Wolf
..it's (morel mid.) a bit "effervescent" sounding to me when loaded properly.
By that I mean it sounds like it has a very fast initial rise-time, and a very nicely "cushioned" (yet clean) decay.
Electrostat's can get the former (even a bit better), but I've never heard one do the later. That combination is, well.. special: extremely appealing.
By that I mean it sounds like it has a very fast initial rise-time, and a very nicely "cushioned" (yet clean) decay.
Electrostat's can get the former (even a bit better), but I've never heard one do the later. That combination is, well.. special: extremely appealing.
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