Most are using perforated metal, I use wire mesh.
Kapton has great characteristics but it would be hard to make a complete seal around these sort of shapes and quite costly to use as well.
If one were to use a rod type stator then one could maybe spiral wrap the rods before mounting the ends.
I have explored the possibility of using some premade kapton tubes or some shrink tubing over some 1/16" tig rod,But again quite costly.
jer
Kapton has great characteristics but it would be hard to make a complete seal around these sort of shapes and quite costly to use as well.
If one were to use a rod type stator then one could maybe spiral wrap the rods before mounting the ends.
I have explored the possibility of using some premade kapton tubes or some shrink tubing over some 1/16" tig rod,But again quite costly.
jer
I now use exclusively perforated metal. I have done considerable research on this topic and have concluded, high solids Alkyds seems to work the best for me. I have used it on about (36 panels or 72 sides ,each measuring 15"x48" to date with no arcing issues.
I know little to nothing about the wire method (but I do enjoy the look of the perf steel, it blows my friends minds!)
Doc
I know little to nothing about the wire method (but I do enjoy the look of the perf steel, it blows my friends minds!)
Doc
I have been doing some searching and I have found some amazing claims of 5Kv to as high as 8.2kv per mil.
AR Konform is one at 5Kv per mil and is not bad for cost but it is up there.
The rest I have no idea how much these may cost or even if the are obtainable to the average DIY'er.
But I did find one good one that is obtainable at least in my area as I had just seen it at a local automotive store for about $40 to $60 a gallon.
I don't recall the exact price it is a 4:1 product and a quart of reducer is about $20.
It is Sherwin Williams ACRYLYD PLUS Clearcoat the data sheet claims a dielectric strength of 2Kv per mil.
This is a very affordable coating for those whom have the ability or access to a sprayer and compressor.
My sprayer has a 4oz gravity feed cup and this allows me to only mix what I need, very cost effective indeed.
Here is the data sheet,
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/media/pds/English/AS810.pdf
As I said I don't remember the exact price but there were some in the below $50 per gallon that were Acrylic Urethane's as well.
I will keep searching until I find there data sheets as well as this is a good place too start.
I will get more exact data later on this, as this was just something that I happened to find in my travels today out holiday shopping.
jer
AR Konform is one at 5Kv per mil and is not bad for cost but it is up there.
The rest I have no idea how much these may cost or even if the are obtainable to the average DIY'er.
But I did find one good one that is obtainable at least in my area as I had just seen it at a local automotive store for about $40 to $60 a gallon.
I don't recall the exact price it is a 4:1 product and a quart of reducer is about $20.
It is Sherwin Williams ACRYLYD PLUS Clearcoat the data sheet claims a dielectric strength of 2Kv per mil.
This is a very affordable coating for those whom have the ability or access to a sprayer and compressor.
My sprayer has a 4oz gravity feed cup and this allows me to only mix what I need, very cost effective indeed.
Here is the data sheet,
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/media/pds/English/AS810.pdf
As I said I don't remember the exact price but there were some in the below $50 per gallon that were Acrylic Urethane's as well.
I will keep searching until I find there data sheets as well as this is a good place too start.
I will get more exact data later on this, as this was just something that I happened to find in my travels today out holiday shopping.
jer
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I have been doing some searching and I have found some amazing claims of 5Kv to as high as 8.2kv per mil.
AR Konform is one at 5Kv per mil and is not bad for cost but it is up there.
The rest I have no idea how much these may cost or even if the are obtainable to the average DIY'er.
But I did find one good one that is obtainable at least in my area as I had just seen it at a local automotive store for about $40 to $60 a gallon.
I don't recall the exact price it is a 4:1 product and a quart of reducer is about $20.
It is Sherwin Williams ACRYLYD PLUS Clearcoat the data sheet claims a dielectric strength of 2Kv per mil.
This is a very affordable coating for those whom have the ability or access to a sprayer and compressor.
My sprayer has a 4oz gravity feed cup and this allows me to only mix what I need, very cost effective indeed.
Here is the data sheet,
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/media/pds/English/AS810.pdf
As I said I don't remember the exact price but there were some in the below $50 per gallon that were Acrylic Urethane's as well.
I will keep searching until I find there data sheets as well as this is a good place too start.
I will get more exact data later on this, as this was just something that I happened to find in my travels today out holiday shopping.
jer
Correction,
AR Konform is the one that is 8.2Kv per mil at about $200 a gallon.
this is about about 4 times the performance at roughly 5 to 7 times the cost. But, it is a very high performance coating if it does what is claimed !!!
http://www.midwesttech.com/pdfs/TDSCTAR.pdf
Midwest Tech Services, Inc. Solutions for Electronic Assembly
Jer
Has anyone tried that spray rubber they sell at home depot? Its supposed to be 1500/m.
I have tried it and love it though I don't yet know of the performance. Spraying and drying and its ability to build up on the stator and get firm and hold to it is very nice. I do a rustoleum professional spray primer. I am having the problem of attaching a wire to a non holed piece of aluminum by soldering... a total bitch. Going to go buy some flux for aluminum... I will plan ahead and figure this out before the dang membrane is attached next time... dumb da dumb dumb. Only learn by doing... had no idea aluminum was so tough as this is my first soldering work.
I have tried it and love it though I don't yet know of the performance. Spraying and drying and its ability to build up on the stator and get firm and hold to it is very nice. I do a rustoleum professional spray primer. I am having the problem of attaching a wire to a non holed piece of aluminum by soldering... a total bitch. Going to go buy some flux for aluminum... I will plan ahead and figure this out before the dang membrane is attached next time... dumb da dumb dumb. Only learn by doing... had no idea aluminum was so tough as this is my first soldering work.
Rather than try to solder to aluminum you could simply drill a small hole and turn a machine screw through it then make your connection to the screw. Just a thought. Best regards Moray James.
I have thought about rubberized coatings, But it may be to thick for my particular method of construction.
how does the finish come out?
Did it flow out nice and smooth?
I did try the Plastidip in a spray can stuff this had a nice finish except that is was very thinned and was much to costly to get an adequate coating thickness.
I had gotten the regular stuff and was going to try thinning it myself but I never got very far and it eventually dried up into one solid hunk.
On the few test samples it worked nicely,but it was very thick I tried using Naptha as suggested and I was not happy using it as a thinner as it is an oily type of solvent.
Xylene would have been a better choice ,but I never got any.
It was at that time that I had discovered Powder Coating.
jer
how does the finish come out?
Did it flow out nice and smooth?
I did try the Plastidip in a spray can stuff this had a nice finish except that is was very thinned and was much to costly to get an adequate coating thickness.
I had gotten the regular stuff and was going to try thinning it myself but I never got very far and it eventually dried up into one solid hunk.
On the few test samples it worked nicely,but it was very thick I tried using Naptha as suggested and I was not happy using it as a thinner as it is an oily type of solvent.
Xylene would have been a better choice ,but I never got any.
It was at that time that I had discovered Powder Coating.
jer
Well you have more experience with this coating stuff then I do... I thought plasti dip built up well and fast. I have found that for the home guy - and I have access to a high and low pressure sprayer but have not pulled them out... the Rustoleum spray can professional primer sprays so nice and powerfully with excellent dispersion - and it dries so nice.. that you can do multiple coats of primer in nothing flat. Then I have put two or three cans of plasti dip over it. I think dipping these might work if it was thinned. I am also going to later try for the hell of it the plasti dip over my red insulating varnish I have discussed. I managed to connect my wire to my stator by using the copper conducting tape on a well cleaned area of the aluminum. After that dried I put a glue on top with obviously an area free. The screw idea is better though and will do that next time. Didn't think of a screw not going all the way through to the other side... another dumb moment for me. I have the power supply going on perf board and am now going to mount the transformer. When you have one of those emco devices it makes it pretty darn easy!
I researching primers I have found that the gray ones have Titanium Dioxide in them and that stuff conducts and is the reason to stay away from white pigmented paints.
The Red primers usually use a lot of Talc as the filler and no Titanium Dioxide.
I have a screen ready with a heavy coat of it for testing ( only I have been slow getting to it).
Talc has excellent dielectric properties,a High strength as well as a high constant (k) and this is good.
Your panel will work fine with out a resistor but I would use at least a 10meg though for a few reasons.
1. Should an arc occur it will protect the diodes from over current and killing a diode (shorted).
2. It same as above this will help to limit the current and help keep in holes burned in the diagphram to a minimum I have had holes as big as a 1/16" before, although they don't degrade any of the output sound level or quality,they are just irritating to look at after all of that work to make them look perfect.
3. If your are running two systems off of one bias supply you will get some crosstalk between the two systems if you don't use a resistor to feed them with.
4. I have found in one instance when I had several panels hooked up in parallel that the voltage was not the same on each panel for some reason even though the panels where almost Identical (one was different but the same size) adding 3X10meg resistors in series to feed each panel separately solved this issue and the all played at the same level.
here is a picture of that configuration,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...t-panel-angles-8-vs-9-panels.html#post2170405
this is the description of what I had discovered,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...t-panel-angles-8-vs-9-panels.html#post2169556
jer
The Red primers usually use a lot of Talc as the filler and no Titanium Dioxide.
I have a screen ready with a heavy coat of it for testing ( only I have been slow getting to it).
Talc has excellent dielectric properties,a High strength as well as a high constant (k) and this is good.
Your panel will work fine with out a resistor but I would use at least a 10meg though for a few reasons.
1. Should an arc occur it will protect the diodes from over current and killing a diode (shorted).
2. It same as above this will help to limit the current and help keep in holes burned in the diagphram to a minimum I have had holes as big as a 1/16" before, although they don't degrade any of the output sound level or quality,they are just irritating to look at after all of that work to make them look perfect.
3. If your are running two systems off of one bias supply you will get some crosstalk between the two systems if you don't use a resistor to feed them with.
4. I have found in one instance when I had several panels hooked up in parallel that the voltage was not the same on each panel for some reason even though the panels where almost Identical (one was different but the same size) adding 3X10meg resistors in series to feed each panel separately solved this issue and the all played at the same level.
here is a picture of that configuration,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...t-panel-angles-8-vs-9-panels.html#post2170405
this is the description of what I had discovered,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...t-panel-angles-8-vs-9-panels.html#post2169556
jer
Well - I got my first test panel hooked up - got some static and whining sound coming through the panel. When it rains it pours... this is a spare receiver I have no idea how to operate... no remote of course... no dvd or antenna hooked up to it! But I got noise... next music and a dvd - lets see... I bet my spare dvd player that I got free... won't work.. watch!
Hey Jer,
Well I thought this thread was played out...LOL, good to see your research is coming up with some possibilities for use on future builds for coatings.
My success in construction on many ESL panels have been by using 2 coats of red primer, 2 coats of rustoleum black as a base coat (I will consider using Black Glyptol for future builds. roughly 6 coats of unthinned Helmsman Spa Urethane. I typically will get a 99-100% arc resistance for just under 3kv.
I have also tested other Home depot sprays such as rubberized sprays, and all have failed, or are not permanent. I have spent nearly every weekend for over a year building and researching to actually write this as factual, ultimately I have also found this to be cheaper than the Powder coating which failed day one.
I also would recommend using a HVLP sprayer. This will save you time and money by doing it yourself, and it is on sale for $99.00 HVLP Spray System - Rockler Woodworking Tools.
Happy Holidays All,
Doc
Well I thought this thread was played out...LOL, good to see your research is coming up with some possibilities for use on future builds for coatings.
My success in construction on many ESL panels have been by using 2 coats of red primer, 2 coats of rustoleum black as a base coat (I will consider using Black Glyptol for future builds. roughly 6 coats of unthinned Helmsman Spa Urethane. I typically will get a 99-100% arc resistance for just under 3kv.
I have also tested other Home depot sprays such as rubberized sprays, and all have failed, or are not permanent. I have spent nearly every weekend for over a year building and researching to actually write this as factual, ultimately I have also found this to be cheaper than the Powder coating which failed day one.
I also would recommend using a HVLP sprayer. This will save you time and money by doing it yourself, and it is on sale for $99.00 HVLP Spray System - Rockler Woodworking Tools.
Happy Holidays All,
Doc
Hi,Doc, I have been doing the same thing extensively.
The powder coating took two applications to get to 5Kv and then some clear as I had stated to get past 7.5kv the limit of my supply at the time with no arcing.
I am going to get some powder material to mess with and generally the voltage range that I have found in the past is from 700v to 1200v per mil for the stuff.
Most automotive paints were around 800v to 900v per mil.
And your typical ployurethanes are in the 400v to 600v range although I have not tested this but I think it is a little better than that.
I have not tried the water based stuff but some of the tesla guys say that it does work well.
I know that with all of the gas pump fires lately caused from static discharge I knew that there was going to be a big effort on increasing the dielectric strength of automotive paints.
I was really impressed when I had found the data on the Sherwin Williams stuff after I had just saw it at the store and I believe it was cheaper than the other ones that looked cheap from the labels on the cans.
I was hoping $30 a gallon But I can settle for $45 I guess as I have to get the reducer too,or else it won't work.
Besides what hasn't gone up in price these days?
But I would really like to get my hands on some of the AR Konform at 8.2Kv per mill, But I just don't have the $206 for a gallon right now.
I may get a spray bomb of it some time just to check it out.
I actually don't mind the cost if it, if it does what they say it does.
This would allow me to have a very large open area and still have a very even and highly concentrated static field across the stator using the wire mesh method.
This was the reason behind my madness in the first place (besides cost).
I have this cute little sprayer for now to try,
Adjustable Detail Spray Gun
I may get a HVLP gun eventually as I know very little about sprayers right now.
I think if I can get a good base coat with the PC and a few sealer coats with some Sherwin Williams it just might be all I need.
The sharp edges of the cut wire mesh is the hardest to seal and Powder coating will/should be able to do this nicely as this was the only area that my one panel had failed.
But with some more trial and error we will find out,But ultimately AR Konform seems to be the stuff to go for.
jer
The powder coating took two applications to get to 5Kv and then some clear as I had stated to get past 7.5kv the limit of my supply at the time with no arcing.
I am going to get some powder material to mess with and generally the voltage range that I have found in the past is from 700v to 1200v per mil for the stuff.
Most automotive paints were around 800v to 900v per mil.
And your typical ployurethanes are in the 400v to 600v range although I have not tested this but I think it is a little better than that.
I have not tried the water based stuff but some of the tesla guys say that it does work well.
I know that with all of the gas pump fires lately caused from static discharge I knew that there was going to be a big effort on increasing the dielectric strength of automotive paints.
I was really impressed when I had found the data on the Sherwin Williams stuff after I had just saw it at the store and I believe it was cheaper than the other ones that looked cheap from the labels on the cans.
I was hoping $30 a gallon But I can settle for $45 I guess as I have to get the reducer too,or else it won't work.
Besides what hasn't gone up in price these days?
But I would really like to get my hands on some of the AR Konform at 8.2Kv per mill, But I just don't have the $206 for a gallon right now.
I may get a spray bomb of it some time just to check it out.
I actually don't mind the cost if it, if it does what they say it does.
This would allow me to have a very large open area and still have a very even and highly concentrated static field across the stator using the wire mesh method.
This was the reason behind my madness in the first place (besides cost).
I have this cute little sprayer for now to try,
Adjustable Detail Spray Gun
I may get a HVLP gun eventually as I know very little about sprayers right now.
I think if I can get a good base coat with the PC and a few sealer coats with some Sherwin Williams it just might be all I need.
The sharp edges of the cut wire mesh is the hardest to seal and Powder coating will/should be able to do this nicely as this was the only area that my one panel had failed.
But with some more trial and error we will find out,But ultimately AR Konform seems to be the stuff to go for.
jer
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Well I tried my aluminum thin metal stators that are powder coated... the 12 inch by 24 inch. I think they are simply to thin as they are humming like crazy. I have my main stators powder coated now and I am covering them with appliance black epoxy rustoleum. I feel no need to get out my hvlp or high pressure sprayer at this point. Over Christmas my brother and I (who is coming up) are going to put together a variety of stators. I have some heavier gauge steel that I have not cut with my dual saw as of yet. DIY is fun because it is frustrating - in the end.
Powders do have an advantage over liquid paint here. If you can, imagine how a liquid coating dries or cures. Solvent has to escape from the film as it "dries down". If you were to look at this under a microscope, you would see a bunch of little pinholes that look like small volcanoes. This is an avenue for moisture and chemicals to penetrate the film more quickly, accelerating corrosion. Powder simply melts down at cure temperature and (usually) isn’t prone to pinholing. quote
you should not have any humming sound coming from your panels.
If your are hearing any snapping ,sizzling or crackling the it is possible that they are leaking.
To check this chose a lesser tap on the multiplier stage.
Make sure that your ground connection and HV out are on the same bank of capacitors.
If you have the ground on the bottom of one bank and the HVout on the top or middle of the other bank of capacitors then you will get hum in the Panel.
Because you are then feeding it with an unfiltered halfwave DC voltage instead of a halfwave filtered DC voltage.
Main advantage to using powders is cost.
Powders can also what is called "gas out" leaving pin holes and microcracks.
Most likely you won't be able to see them, But if you hook the panel to some 10Kv to 20Kv supply these spots become extremely visible as little purple spots or purple plumes shooting from the stator like little tiny volcanoes.
This is the main reason that main thin coats are better than one thick coating of insulating material of whatever you choose to use.
After 7 years of Deliberate environmental abuse I did get a slight corrosion of the aluminium and degradation of the coating as peeling and/or chipping in a few spots.
This is the reason that I did have to reseal them with some clear acrylic to get to the voltages I was aiming for as they worked fine up to the 3Kv to 4Kv range.
So far I have only found powder coats good to 1200v per mil so paints do have it beat in that area.
I have just started my latest of many searches and I will keep searching untll I can confirm any thing better.
I can say that I was very impressed with the consistency and sealing abilities of powder coating and I have found by using the best of both methods can yield a very High performance coating that is very cost effective While keeping the coating thickness low enough not to cause any issues with open area or closing of the holes and that is with using wire mesh.
As that was a problem using just paints as it took way to much to get satisfactory results (besides the fact that I used the wrong stuff to begin with) and the more I put on the holes just got smaller.
I was just in Pamida yesterday and they have a can of regular Clear Acrylic for $1.69 so I will give it a try.
This stuff is 1/3 the cost of any thing I have ever bought and is probably the same stuff as the name brands.
This will be a big savings as it took around atleast 9 to 12 cans to do my four 8.5" X 22" stators back 2003 as well as it took close to 2 cans to properly reseal my 3.25" X 9.75" powder coated stators at about $4 to $5 a can.
I am going to do I few tests with what I have soon and I will post the results here.
One that I am particularly interested in is the Matte type of clear acrylic as the filler that is normaly used in such paints is Silicon Dioxide (Glass) and a good layer of this may be beneficial.
Also I have found substance the you mix with the Powder Coating material and add water so that it can be sprayed on and then baked.
This is used for non Metallic parts such as wood and glass.
Silicon Dioxide Matte finish material is available to add to powder coating as well,Again this may help but I haven't tried it as it was something that I had disscussed with Roger Sanders once and that he was exploring as well.
I don't know what the outcome was as this was before the Erros hit the market.
jer
If your are hearing any snapping ,sizzling or crackling the it is possible that they are leaking.
To check this chose a lesser tap on the multiplier stage.
Make sure that your ground connection and HV out are on the same bank of capacitors.
If you have the ground on the bottom of one bank and the HVout on the top or middle of the other bank of capacitors then you will get hum in the Panel.
Because you are then feeding it with an unfiltered halfwave DC voltage instead of a halfwave filtered DC voltage.
Main advantage to using powders is cost.
Powders can also what is called "gas out" leaving pin holes and microcracks.
Most likely you won't be able to see them, But if you hook the panel to some 10Kv to 20Kv supply these spots become extremely visible as little purple spots or purple plumes shooting from the stator like little tiny volcanoes.
This is the main reason that main thin coats are better than one thick coating of insulating material of whatever you choose to use.
After 7 years of Deliberate environmental abuse I did get a slight corrosion of the aluminium and degradation of the coating as peeling and/or chipping in a few spots.
This is the reason that I did have to reseal them with some clear acrylic to get to the voltages I was aiming for as they worked fine up to the 3Kv to 4Kv range.
So far I have only found powder coats good to 1200v per mil so paints do have it beat in that area.
I have just started my latest of many searches and I will keep searching untll I can confirm any thing better.
I can say that I was very impressed with the consistency and sealing abilities of powder coating and I have found by using the best of both methods can yield a very High performance coating that is very cost effective While keeping the coating thickness low enough not to cause any issues with open area or closing of the holes and that is with using wire mesh.
As that was a problem using just paints as it took way to much to get satisfactory results (besides the fact that I used the wrong stuff to begin with) and the more I put on the holes just got smaller.
I was just in Pamida yesterday and they have a can of regular Clear Acrylic for $1.69 so I will give it a try.
This stuff is 1/3 the cost of any thing I have ever bought and is probably the same stuff as the name brands.
This will be a big savings as it took around atleast 9 to 12 cans to do my four 8.5" X 22" stators back 2003 as well as it took close to 2 cans to properly reseal my 3.25" X 9.75" powder coated stators at about $4 to $5 a can.
I am going to do I few tests with what I have soon and I will post the results here.
One that I am particularly interested in is the Matte type of clear acrylic as the filler that is normaly used in such paints is Silicon Dioxide (Glass) and a good layer of this may be beneficial.
Also I have found substance the you mix with the Powder Coating material and add water so that it can be sprayed on and then baked.
This is used for non Metallic parts such as wood and glass.
Silicon Dioxide Matte finish material is available to add to powder coating as well,Again this may help but I haven't tried it as it was something that I had disscussed with Roger Sanders once and that he was exploring as well.
I don't know what the outcome was as this was before the Erros hit the market.
jer
Yes, He is, I had a few very nice conversations with him Back in 2003-04.
At that time he had offered to sell me some transformers for only $50 a piece but I never followed up on the offer because of some stupid life's mistakes that had set me back at the time.(he,he, live and learn the hard way!)
That was when he was with Innersound and shortly after that things went wrong and he was in the process of moving and started his new company so I have lost touch with him since then.
He was working on some patents on some stuff.
Like the using PC Board material in which we both had a good laugh about,But hey,More power to him for being the First to patent it !!! he,he,he
But like I said, I don't know how far he got and I don't want to infringe on any of them here,But he was very helpful as we talked about almost every possible solution and all that was left was to try it.
This was when Powder Coating was still quite young and he was exploring on adding Silicon Dioxide as well and we discussed the theory behind it.
This when I had subscribed to Paint and Powder Magazine and I had read several articles on this procedure,But I never saw any test data pertaining to our application.
I am also exploring the possibility of some sort of dippable ceramic coating that can be baked on as well.
This may help to give my wire mesh method some rigidity and help to get away from using the plastic grate material for support.
Although this can be done when using powder coating as well, just the trick is to start out with a perfectly flat piece before it is coated.
jer
At that time he had offered to sell me some transformers for only $50 a piece but I never followed up on the offer because of some stupid life's mistakes that had set me back at the time.(he,he, live and learn the hard way!)
That was when he was with Innersound and shortly after that things went wrong and he was in the process of moving and started his new company so I have lost touch with him since then.
He was working on some patents on some stuff.
Like the using PC Board material in which we both had a good laugh about,But hey,More power to him for being the First to patent it !!! he,he,he
But like I said, I don't know how far he got and I don't want to infringe on any of them here,But he was very helpful as we talked about almost every possible solution and all that was left was to try it.
This was when Powder Coating was still quite young and he was exploring on adding Silicon Dioxide as well and we discussed the theory behind it.
This when I had subscribed to Paint and Powder Magazine and I had read several articles on this procedure,But I never saw any test data pertaining to our application.
I am also exploring the possibility of some sort of dippable ceramic coating that can be baked on as well.
This may help to give my wire mesh method some rigidity and help to get away from using the plastic grate material for support.
Although this can be done when using powder coating as well, just the trick is to start out with a perfectly flat piece before it is coated.
jer
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