I'm looking for hi-resolution wideranger for open baffle.
For me high resolution is key feature of realistic music presentation.
I have not much experience with fulllrangers. Best resolution and attack I've heard was from vintage Saba drivers. I've been using them for couple of moths. Resolution is tremendous but overall this drivers are not very good. Sometimes they just don't sound clear. Especially when it comes to piano. Probably full treatment would help them.
I've have some experiences with Visaton B200 with Phase Plugs and BSC. Resolution is not as ultimate as Saba's but satisfactory enough to my needs.
Lately I've bought Monacor (Carpower) ms-100chq of scorpion's MJAO which is nice driver but lacks this liveliness that i'm searching for.
I'm reading a lot about Fostex drivers which are very popular and quite cheap. I've seen a lot of very good opinions about ff85k, fe127e, fe107e etc.
Are they quick, full of life and attack ? I'm a little bit concerned about low efficiency.
Very common opinion is that ONLY efficient speakers are quick.
What do you guys think about that. Is it a myth ? B200 and Saba's are very efficient....
Right now I don't know what to buy. I'm thinking of b200 with fountek horn ribbon above 7khz. Do you know of any smaller driver with same resolution ? It doesn't necessarily have to go with ribbon. Detailed fullranger would also be OK but possibility to mate it with ribbon would be even better.
Another option is Supravox 135lb wich I can buy used locally in Poland right now.
Driver I'm looking is going to be mounted on open baffle (45cmx100cm) with 2x Audax 12" per side so efficiency can go even as high as 96db/w and I'll still have enough bass but low efficiency is also OK as long as I'm getting what i'm looking for.
Attack and resolution (I'm I getting boring with it ? 🙂. Is this really a matter of efficiency ?
For me high resolution is key feature of realistic music presentation.
I have not much experience with fulllrangers. Best resolution and attack I've heard was from vintage Saba drivers. I've been using them for couple of moths. Resolution is tremendous but overall this drivers are not very good. Sometimes they just don't sound clear. Especially when it comes to piano. Probably full treatment would help them.
I've have some experiences with Visaton B200 with Phase Plugs and BSC. Resolution is not as ultimate as Saba's but satisfactory enough to my needs.
Lately I've bought Monacor (Carpower) ms-100chq of scorpion's MJAO which is nice driver but lacks this liveliness that i'm searching for.
I'm reading a lot about Fostex drivers which are very popular and quite cheap. I've seen a lot of very good opinions about ff85k, fe127e, fe107e etc.
Are they quick, full of life and attack ? I'm a little bit concerned about low efficiency.
Very common opinion is that ONLY efficient speakers are quick.
What do you guys think about that. Is it a myth ? B200 and Saba's are very efficient....
Right now I don't know what to buy. I'm thinking of b200 with fountek horn ribbon above 7khz. Do you know of any smaller driver with same resolution ? It doesn't necessarily have to go with ribbon. Detailed fullranger would also be OK but possibility to mate it with ribbon would be even better.
Another option is Supravox 135lb wich I can buy used locally in Poland right now.
Driver I'm looking is going to be mounted on open baffle (45cmx100cm) with 2x Audax 12" per side so efficiency can go even as high as 96db/w and I'll still have enough bass but low efficiency is also OK as long as I'm getting what i'm looking for.
Attack and resolution (I'm I getting boring with it ? 🙂. Is this really a matter of efficiency ?
Hi! I´m not propably the right person to answer your question because I have just built my first fullrange speakers. I built the Pencil 12 speakers using of course Alpair 12 drivers. Compared to my old 2,5 -way diy speakers Alpair has more detail, more control and is more present.
I know there are people here that have experience about several different drivers so maybe you´ll get a better answer. I hope you send some pictures of your new project when you get started.
So I´m a fan of Alpair and I´m going to usa them in my next project also.
I know there are people here that have experience about several different drivers so maybe you´ll get a better answer. I hope you send some pictures of your new project when you get started.
So I´m a fan of Alpair and I´m going to usa them in my next project also.
The FF85K is IMHO one of Fostex very best drivers, possibly the best if you can't mod out at least some of the weaknesses in the others.
I've just an XO away from an FF85KeN variation on the MJK passive baffle. Good from 250k up -- up all the way.
A 3" is going to be a bit weak if called on to play really loud or do really murderous dynamics.
Any of the Gen2 Mark Audio (Alpair7 & Alpair12, Alpair10 soon) are bigger, for more dynamic capability and rival the FF85.Mark (and his ex-Fostex associates) has really pushed FR tech ahead with this generation of drivers.
FF85 has been discontinued and is getting scarcer all the time (i have a stash of them).
Efficiency is not required for downward dynamic range (micro detail) althou it helps if your amp is lacking in that department.
dave
I've just an XO away from an FF85KeN variation on the MJK passive baffle. Good from 250k up -- up all the way.
A 3" is going to be a bit weak if called on to play really loud or do really murderous dynamics.
Any of the Gen2 Mark Audio (Alpair7 & Alpair12, Alpair10 soon) are bigger, for more dynamic capability and rival the FF85.Mark (and his ex-Fostex associates) has really pushed FR tech ahead with this generation of drivers.
FF85 has been discontinued and is getting scarcer all the time (i have a stash of them).
Efficiency is not required for downward dynamic range (micro detail) althou it helps if your amp is lacking in that department.
dave
If those 2 Audax 12" are also on the OB, then you won't get 96dB/w of sensitivity. 45cm wide is not going to support that under 200Hz or so. (ok, with help of the floor, maybe 100-something)
MJK's article about passive 2-way OB design is highly recommended.
A rule of thumb is the sensitity of the woofer(s) should be 10dB more than the mid-high unit.
Thanks guys. I've just bought used Supravox 135 VERY cheaply. They were just 130euro/pair !!! A real bargain and I can always sell them without loss if they're not good enough.
A friend of mine said that they're slightly quicker than b200.
As for 2xAudax 12" per side - belive me they'll make it. With QTS=0.8 They make 101db/2.8v on the baffle at 100hz !
With Monacor ms-100chq (94db/2.8v) and Saba (96db/2.8v) they needed a little bit of series resistance.
On the graph you can see predicted response for Supravox 135lb and parallel woofers with 1ohm series resisatance built into the coil.
(2nd order 180hz, 1st order 370hz , 1ohm resistance for woofers)
They give very realistic, dry and even bass response down to 45hz with a little help of main room mode which occurs at 47hz . Additionally I also use modified Behringer DEQ to lift response in 30hz-60hz region wich makes bass even deeper.
My 45cm baffle has also very shallow (6cm-11cm) slated wings. They were much deeper at the beggining of the project but I could slightly hear resonances even with DSP. I wouldn't recommend to anyone going deeper with wings than 15cm.
What I'm really courios about is what factor is responsible for poor detail in some drivers. What are the factors ? In case of ms-100chq it looks good only on paper. Pretty low mass, enough BL, QTS, Fs is high. What I'm blaiming is really heavily treated cone and stiff, rubber (lossy?) suspension.
Any ideas how to tell from the raw data if the driver is quick ?
A friend of mine said that they're slightly quicker than b200.
As for 2xAudax 12" per side - belive me they'll make it. With QTS=0.8 They make 101db/2.8v on the baffle at 100hz !
With Monacor ms-100chq (94db/2.8v) and Saba (96db/2.8v) they needed a little bit of series resistance.
On the graph you can see predicted response for Supravox 135lb and parallel woofers with 1ohm series resisatance built into the coil.
(2nd order 180hz, 1st order 370hz , 1ohm resistance for woofers)
They give very realistic, dry and even bass response down to 45hz with a little help of main room mode which occurs at 47hz . Additionally I also use modified Behringer DEQ to lift response in 30hz-60hz region wich makes bass even deeper.
My 45cm baffle has also very shallow (6cm-11cm) slated wings. They were much deeper at the beggining of the project but I could slightly hear resonances even with DSP. I wouldn't recommend to anyone going deeper with wings than 15cm.
What I'm really courios about is what factor is responsible for poor detail in some drivers. What are the factors ? In case of ms-100chq it looks good only on paper. Pretty low mass, enough BL, QTS, Fs is high. What I'm blaiming is really heavily treated cone and stiff, rubber (lossy?) suspension.
Any ideas how to tell from the raw data if the driver is quick ?
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Another factor might be size of voicecoil. Visaton emphasizes that B200's voicecoil is very short for good transient response.
Dave, could explain the flaws of other Fostex drivers. I was asking about Fe166/167 because if i'd really like 3-way set up wit horn ribbon, I could remove whizzer and I'd get rid of frequences above 9-8khz. It would be perfect to make minimalistic 6db/oct crossover.
I've seen 166en's measurements by Bob Brines. They look pretty nice. I'd also eventually make full cone treatment.
For 2-way I'd take ff85k right away but in terms of extended midrange driver ? I'm not sure.
What do you think ?
Maybe fe127 with phase plug would be enough ?
Have you ever seen any measuremants of whizerless fe166/167 ?
Kuba
PS. Supra's 135 are OK but lack the thrilling microdynamics that I'm looking for.
The paper cones generate a fair amount of self-noise (as do most paper cones), they tend to have some fairly uncontrolled peaks (something i deal specifically with on the 126/127), whizzer cones bring their own issues. Some of these are fixable, and you can end up with some pretty good (very good) drivers.
De-whizzered i have no experience,
dave
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