So you like cheap speakers and amps as long as you have an enclosure that does not sound like cardboard?
Gainclones are worse than almost any discrete design...so running them off a SMPS is a worse idea than buying the cheap amps you want. In fact it is almost as stupid as running them off your AC inverter and back through a normal transformer!
Ha...and 24db why? What a frickin waste there is no reason for it when the whole system is bound to be crap anyway.
Basically you are saying you will get cheap amp and speakers, then apply fiberglass enclosures and 24db crossovers and call it good?
-Matt
Gainclones are worse than almost any discrete design...so running them off a SMPS is a worse idea than buying the cheap amps you want. In fact it is almost as stupid as running them off your AC inverter and back through a normal transformer!
Ha...and 24db why? What a frickin waste there is no reason for it when the whole system is bound to be crap anyway.
Basically you are saying you will get cheap amp and speakers, then apply fiberglass enclosures and 24db crossovers and call it good?
-Matt
zagisrule! said:So you like cheap speakers and amps as long as you have an enclosure that does not sound like cardboard?
Gainclones are worse than almost any discrete design...so running them off a SMPS is a worse idea than buying the cheap amps you want. In fact it is almost as stupid as running them off your AC inverter and back through a normal transformer!
Ha...and 24db why? What a frickin waste there is no reason for it when the whole system is bound to be **** anyway.
Basically you are saying you will get cheap amp and speakers, then apply fiberglass enclosures and 24db crossovers and call it good?
-Matt
you didn't actually read my posts.. did you? and no way in a gainclone worse than a cheap amp...
SkinnyBoy said:
I think that we all gave you good enough reasons to conclude that the build quality is different.
SkinnyBoy said:
Ok, so you just said you are going to get crappy amp and speakers.
SkinnyBoy said:
is there anything stopping me from using a gainclone to run the tweets, either running off a home made switchmode powersupply, or a home made, low frequency, inefficient psu...
also, I wasn't going to mount the speakers straight into the doors.... I was going to make sealed fibreglass pods.... I don't like speakers that sound like they are mounted in cardboard boxes
We certainly would not want cardboard like sound, I agree with you on that!
But a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link(s). SkinnyBoy said:confused? no....
I would make my own active crossover... which means I would really like to find an amp that didn't already have any crappy filtering inbuilt.. or, like I said, bypass all of it by modifying the amp
http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
also, the 24dB/oct means I can cross the tweeter over abit lower without having to worry about a reduction in power handling
Yes, external crossover is a fine idea, bi-amping that is great! Problem is it will still sound bad, you are better of just saving your money and running everything with passive x-o's and one amp.
And gainclones are nothing but a sorry example for the "audiophile" community's lack of thought and cheapness. Yes they sound bad, yes I have heard them and they don't even come close to what a good MOSFET amplifier sounds like. Before you even start going into this, have you built a real discrete amplifier? No, I would be willing to bet you haven't or the gainclones would be in the trashcan.
In fact the whole gainclone concept is just people being cheap. Notice how many people get samples of the $5 national IC's? Samples for an amplifier that would cost only say $15 to buy everything for! And category 5 speaker wire too! What a crock that is....yes it sounds different because of parasitic inductance, resistance and capacitance, but not in a good way!
-Matt
I'm running Infinity Perfect 5.1's now...but then again they are $400 a set for the mids/tweets.
I'm not sure on true hi-fi lower cost stuff, but I like the Infinity stuff (used to have the Reference series componenets ~ $200US and they sounded alright). There are many component systems in the $200-$400 range from other companies such as Focal, JL and MB Quart that are really nice sounding too. I am just letting you know that your priorities seem to be in the wrong spots, there is no reason for such an elaborate system (fiberglass and possibly bi-amping) if you are on a budget. You can get decent results simply by adding some damping material within the door and using a single better amp and passive crossovers. When you are limited by bad equipment, all your efforts would be basically in vain.
-Matt
I'm not sure on true hi-fi lower cost stuff, but I like the Infinity stuff (used to have the Reference series componenets ~ $200US and they sounded alright). There are many component systems in the $200-$400 range from other companies such as Focal, JL and MB Quart that are really nice sounding too. I am just letting you know that your priorities seem to be in the wrong spots, there is no reason for such an elaborate system (fiberglass and possibly bi-amping) if you are on a budget. You can get decent results simply by adding some damping material within the door and using a single better amp and passive crossovers. When you are limited by bad equipment, all your efforts would be basically in vain.
-Matt
zagisrule! said:Not true buddy.
Cheap construction overall, chinsy stamped baskets, tiny magnets and small voice coil diameter seems to be typical of their offerings. The paper cone present on their cheaper models does not handle lower midbass all that well either.
well, obviously you don't... lol
who cares if they have stamped baskets? doesn't effect the sound, if anything, its better... very decent sized magnets for the size of the speakers.. ALOT bigger than most car audio drivers, and the 6.5's I have have a 33mm diameter VC, vs your 5 1/4's 31.75mm.. seems reasonable, yes?? and they handle midbass AND bass EXTREMELY well!!!!
Yes, you could....
Nope, I'm not going to stop you after all this is diyaudio not elitecaraudio
Economics and Physics may not be so liberal though
I think you may find that by the time you are thru building everything it may have been cheaper just to buy a good used amp. But wheres the fun in that?
Just remember, the LM3875's power peaks out at 6-8 ohms and drops like a rock below that so a true 4ohm tweeter will not work as well as a 8ohm unit. Again if you can get a very flat impedance tweeter (ie chambered) the gainclone should like it better. By matching the load to the amp you can get away with this "less is more" approach.
Will it sound better than the Pass designed Adcom? Couldn't tell ya I haven't built a gainclone yet. But I am suspicious of all the gainclone hype as well as the NON-OS DACs. I will reserve judgement till I hear em
The GFA4302 is probably too much amp. Do you really need a 1ohm stable amp to play tweeters?
I thought of this solution years ago but you will lose low freq response because most car midbasses are designed to work with a large door volume behind them. This may not be a problem in car if "cabin gain" compensates for this. I don't know enough about your situation to help here.
Nope, I'm not going to stop you after all this is diyaudio not elitecaraudio
Economics and Physics may not be so liberal though
I think you may find that by the time you are thru building everything it may have been cheaper just to buy a good used amp. But wheres the fun in that?
Just remember, the LM3875's power peaks out at 6-8 ohms and drops like a rock below that so a true 4ohm tweeter will not work as well as a 8ohm unit. Again if you can get a very flat impedance tweeter (ie chambered) the gainclone should like it better. By matching the load to the amp you can get away with this "less is more" approach.
Will it sound better than the Pass designed Adcom? Couldn't tell ya I haven't built a gainclone yet. But I am suspicious of all the gainclone hype as well as the NON-OS DACs. I will reserve judgement till I hear em
The GFA4302 is probably too much amp. Do you really need a 1ohm stable amp to play tweeters?
I thought of this solution years ago but you will lose low freq response because most car midbasses are designed to work with a large door volume behind them. This may not be a problem in car if "cabin gain" compensates for this. I don't know enough about your situation to help here.
Stamped baskets are not quite as sturdy and can warp. Now how would a stamped basket be better than a cast unit?
Lets compare apples to oranges then? 6.5" units vs 6.5"? The 6.5" model has a 38mm VC.
The paper for one does not dissipate heat well, and for another it's not the most ridgid substance on earth and you do get warpage at lower frequencies and high volume.
Other than that I just think they sound great. You admitted yourself the Peerless drivers aren't all that hot in your second post of this thread.
-Matt
Lets compare apples to oranges then? 6.5" units vs 6.5"? The 6.5" model has a 38mm VC.
The paper for one does not dissipate heat well, and for another it's not the most ridgid substance on earth and you do get warpage at lower frequencies and high volume.
Other than that I just think they sound great. You admitted yourself the Peerless drivers aren't all that hot in your second post of this thread.
-Matt
zagisrule! said:
and lets compare other things too.. like the voice coil height....
14mm on the Infinity's vs 17mm on the Peerless...
X-max... Infinity's 3.44mm... Peerless 5.5mm...
BL?? Infinity's 6.37... Peerless... 7.0 (motor strength, the higher the better)
any more questions?
ahh... no I didn't..
Well then I am sure you will be happy with them!
Take a look at the response curves and you will find an incredibly flat response on the Infinities and the most expensive Peerless drivers I can find are not only much less sensitive but also less flat resonse wise. You can really see the difference above 2K. Not sure where you were going to cross your tweeters too though...but I doubt you will get such a flat line of frequency-db across the board from 100hz-20Khz. You need to match your tweeters to your woofers well and also make sure crossover point is just right.
All in all the Infinity system is a great sounding system and I think you would be very hard pressed to beat or even match it...even if you did come close to the price tag. They do sound absolutely phenomenal...extremely crisp midbass and clean vocals/highs.
In any case the home-made speakers I have heard with the Peerless woofers/tweeters were not what I would call outstanding, but that could be due to poor enclosure design, which would only get worse in a car environment.
I hope you have fun with your gainclone/AC inverter/peerless/24db active crossover/fiberglass sound system!
-Matt
Take a look at the response curves and you will find an incredibly flat response on the Infinities and the most expensive Peerless drivers I can find are not only much less sensitive but also less flat resonse wise. You can really see the difference above 2K. Not sure where you were going to cross your tweeters too though...but I doubt you will get such a flat line of frequency-db across the board from 100hz-20Khz. You need to match your tweeters to your woofers well and also make sure crossover point is just right.
All in all the Infinity system is a great sounding system and I think you would be very hard pressed to beat or even match it...even if you did come close to the price tag. They do sound absolutely phenomenal...extremely crisp midbass and clean vocals/highs.
In any case the home-made speakers I have heard with the Peerless woofers/tweeters were not what I would call outstanding, but that could be due to poor enclosure design, which would only get worse in a car environment.
I hope you have fun with your gainclone/AC inverter/peerless/24db active crossover/fiberglass sound system!
-Matt
lol, firstly the efficiency of the Infinities doesn't even say at what distance, or power... chances are its 2.83 volts (which means 2 watts into a 4 ohm load, or +3dB) and its possible that its not even measured at a meter, but rather half a meter. Assuming its at 2.83 volts, that makes the speakers 87dB efficient, which is very comparable to the Peerless...
what are you talking about with the response curves? the low end response is almost identical. The Peerless mid-woofers go flat upto 4,000Hz, but ofcourse I'd cross the tweeter over lower.
I'm not too sure what drivers you were looking at, but surely it wasn't peerless...
what are you talking about with the response curves? the low end response is almost identical. The Peerless mid-woofers go flat upto 4,000Hz, but ofcourse I'd cross the tweeter over lower.
I'm not too sure what drivers you were looking at, but surely it wasn't peerless...
I skipped reading the last few post because it's late I will get back to them
You could use a gainclone with a smps but you have to make sure it is protected.
I currently run a two way setup in kick pods. My recomendation to you is to only use tweet and mid in the pods and a midbass in the doors. Getting midbass out of pods is possible but you have to make sure you match your drivers and enclosure size (which is usualy pretty small) or you will not get a good FR.
You could use a gainclone with a smps but you have to make sure it is protected.
I currently run a two way setup in kick pods. My recomendation to you is to only use tweet and mid in the pods and a midbass in the doors. Getting midbass out of pods is possible but you have to make sure you match your drivers and enclosure size (which is usualy pretty small) or you will not get a good FR.
I guess the question now is... how do you know if its a good or bad layout.... there's nothing stopping a cheap amp from having a well designed PCB.. and there's no reason an expensive amp would definatly have a well designed PCB either... so.... tell me if its bad or not without looking in the amp lol
lol
It's not just about the PCB layout. The design in general of cheaper units is compromised in favor of using fewer and cheaper components than are needed for good sound.
Important specs to look over are SNR, THD, slew rate, damping, etc.
Listen to them to tell though...in the end they might have similar specs but sound completely different in the real world.
-Matt
Important specs to look over are SNR, THD, slew rate, damping, etc.
Listen to them to tell though...in the end they might have similar specs but sound completely different in the real world.
-Matt
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