I figured that he'll actually receive solar panels. If the listed dimensions are correct, they must be ~100w.
Far from the advertised 350w but still a bargain $/W wise.
Far from the advertised 350w but still a bargain $/W wise.
I think you might need to catch up with the project if you want to help
Well aware that these are prolly at least 100w each. My motor is only 700w max and the 4 initial panels as per the conversation with Art, is for 2–3 knots bibbed lure trolling speed which may be supported by only quarter to half throttle
Did ask about buying these panels and did ask about working out a controller. Hey, you actually declined to help with the controller when I asked you directly to take a look at it, so trying to learn and made decisions, good or bad. The panel power has been brought up by someone who appears to know about such things, so I am asking him if they appear to be as touted
The panels are bendable, not foldable. Will have to find a way to work with what's there. There is no set recipe for my project yet. The uptake for very light, efficient and fast solar cats has been very low and with only a couple of very well-thought-out DIY attempts documented globally
To be honest, mostly based on intuition and some considerable experience fishing bow and transom mounted electrics. I used to be an active participant in the Bass type comps here. I don't really have much else to go on though other than some YouTube kayak projects and such using some of the motors that I am looking at. The Flipsky motor can do 11mph on a Kayak. I have a pair of hulls that are even more efficient and the 6 knot target is with the craft at full electric power using one such motor behind each hull
An acquaintance is leading the charge with human power with such hulls in a stabilised monohull config. His results are promising when compared to the 3-5kw being considered for the beach cat
That's because I know how they work and what they do but I don't know how much headroom is needed, which work well and which ones are purest chinesium - I don't feel comfortable suggesting to buy something I know next to nothing about. It's a vehicle and safety is something much more important than on speakers etc.
Reading about the panels and realizing that they promise two mutual exclusive properties is a completely different thing.
But I get the hint, I keep out of this thread from now on, I'm sorry.
That's exactly my point! Tempered glass can't be bent, that means you likely need to protect them in some way or they may get you stranded somewhere (literally).
Huh? No hints here man
Not my experience. All the iPad tempered glass screen protectors that I have applied are quite bendable. You may not be aware, I am responsible for the neon signage around the Capitol Theatre in Sydney City. Pro glassworker and can shape and adjust temper for custom glass work. Fibre, cloth or pane. This has nothing to do with the panels though but the project has some tempered glass used
I also use tempered glass as the final layer of an instrument panel. Makes for an awesome scratch resistant deep gloss finish over the etched perspex with light effects. Much like the Roland Aira
I appreciate you trying to catch any probs that you see. This is very welcome, but there is always some backstory behind things
Will try again, the target is around 300-700w system load for slow speed cruise to 2-3 knots. The system needs to be able to deliver this during daylight hours without draining the battery. 12 panels of the type ordered can be accommodated. Best MPPT performance array favoured. This would be 4 panels in series and three such sets in total in parallel. I think I have the right controller now for this panel config, and it can accommodate my current 12 LiFePo4 and provide the current that I need. It also supports a future migration to a higher voltage battery system. We can mark the controller at least as sorted for now
The largest motors that I am looking at are 70A max rated. I intend to run dual motors and the controller needs to support at least 140A at WOT
Randy, when doing your calculations, remember that your charging output will be over 14 volts and the mppt will require some voltage headroom over that figure to operate. Your DC-DC unit sending power to the motor will best be powered from the battery bus, sitting in parallel with the charger and battery. This will allow stable operation of the motor despite variations in the solar panel output.
Bear in mind that the real world power production will not be 100% of the panel rating throughout the day. I looked at the solar production potential for Sydney to get an idea of what you can expect in that general part of the world. A 1kw array, mounted at 30° to account for the latitude will avg 6.xx kwh of power output during the summer and somewhere around 3.5kwh during the winter months. Mounted flat on a floating vessel, subject to some degree of pitch and roll will reduce that output, probably significantly. Scaled down to one of your 4 panel series modules, a real world test in the intended environment (flat mount, on the water) will tell the tale and give you solid number to work from. A second battery would certainly help by storing as much of the energy produced during maximum production (around noon) as possible.
I'd also suggest looking at a wind generator (or two) to augment the solar setup. No deck space required and the free, open air marine setting is wind-gen friendly.
I hope this helps
Bear in mind that the real world power production will not be 100% of the panel rating throughout the day. I looked at the solar production potential for Sydney to get an idea of what you can expect in that general part of the world. A 1kw array, mounted at 30° to account for the latitude will avg 6.xx kwh of power output during the summer and somewhere around 3.5kwh during the winter months. Mounted flat on a floating vessel, subject to some degree of pitch and roll will reduce that output, probably significantly. Scaled down to one of your 4 panel series modules, a real world test in the intended environment (flat mount, on the water) will tell the tale and give you solid number to work from. A second battery would certainly help by storing as much of the energy produced during maximum production (around noon) as possible.
I'd also suggest looking at a wind generator (or two) to augment the solar setup. No deck space required and the free, open air marine setting is wind-gen friendly.
I hope this helps
I completely agree! And the losses of the voltage conversion and charging add up to probably 20-30% all in all.
@ICG Yes sir, it all adds up and the stated goals combined with limited space make for a challenging endeavor. He does have a much more favorable environment to work with than either of us. 48° latitude and frequently cloudy skies force me to consider every detail and use far more storage capacity than I would use on sunnier locations closer to the equator. I'm guessing that your environment must be somewhat similar?
It doesn't matter if my enviroment is different but the efficiency of the solar panels differ from the angle to the sun. Since he didn't plan to angle the panels towards the sun (with an expensive and elaborate electro-mechanics (which I see to be unreasonable anyway)), you cannot count on the maximum power at all. Having the panels flat on a boat top deck/ceiling will provide on average at best just 60% of its maximum power because of the angle mismatch and degree of effective active surface. The panels being 30° off the incoming light direction already reduces the efficiency to about 50% (maybe that was improved meanwhile but even at 60% it's a severe power loss). So become stranded is much more likely, even if he increased the panels with higher efficiency. To add to that, the charging of the batteries heats them up, lowering their efficiency in loading. Using them at the same time increases the current by a lot and - as expected - the heat on the charging controller, the batteries and the wiring. I don't have RL experience there so I can't say how much worse it gets but I can tell every calculation here up until now didn't account for any of that. That means if the panels can't be angled towards the sun, you have to compensate that with about 50% more panel surface.
I know, now I'm the ugly German party pooper but I just want to prevent a big disappointment if it doesn't work like reasonably sounding solutions promise which are - unfortunately - not realistic.
I know, now I'm the ugly German party pooper but I just want to prevent a big disappointment if it doesn't work like reasonably sounding solutions promise which are - unfortunately - not realistic.
Thanks for the input guys. Really helps in getting a handle on it
Couple of corrections first, no disputes though. I have been planning around the points you guys are raising. Maybe time I asked for the threads fo be merged
Any future higher voltage upgrade will be directly off the battery too
The DC-DC up converter is for the TPA3255 based amp modules
Is this the kind of thing that you meant?
With this and power assist, on a good day I should be able to exceed hull speed by getting up on the foils and the planning pad on the central nacelle bing fitted. Have a look at the Flying Phantom pic in the project thread
Anyway, click on the EVRE in the original post of the project thread. This is ample power to come on when the panels can't keep up.
Couple of corrections first, no disputes though. I have been planning around the points you guys are raising. Maybe time I asked for the threads fo be merged
The current 12v motor directly off the battery
Any future higher voltage upgrade will be directly off the battery too
The DC-DC up converter is for the TPA3255 based amp modules
By flat, I meant not a curved roof. In the project thread, I have outlined the intended super structure arrangement. Basically low side walls and a roof on 4 pillars. The pillars are telescopic and inclinable. The roof comes down as a lid and can be set to any angle when deployed. Telescopic incline with simple shear pin system per piller. I have a CNC
If I understand you correctly, you mean as a regulator? I might end up going this way. The motors that I am looking at are 12-24v for electric outboard option and 48v for the DIY option. The links are in the project thread in the last posts. I like the idea of the already built outboard, as it reduces fabricating and getting bogged down. I also won't have to do any battery upgrades if I run high output 12v to 24v up converters for the new motors
Is this the kind of thing that you meant?
Correction need here. I am located 14hrs drive north from Sydney, and we have good sunshine throughout the year with no real winter. More like wet and dry season and too far south to be too wet. Average daytime temps are around 26–31 degrees Celsius through the year
I didn't consider this due to the safety issues on a very small vessel and with some fishing rods around of the $1k+ type. Even a horizontal type is problematic. But in the original thread, I do list a strategy for using wind power as a split crab's claw sail. One half each side of the solar array. Btw, I had 12 panels max that I could fit like that in two rows of six
With this and power assist, on a good day I should be able to exceed hull speed by getting up on the foils and the planning pad on the central nacelle bing fitted. Have a look at the Flying Phantom pic in the project thread
😀 an understatement! A very challenging project indeed. But also, due to the light multihull craft, feasible. Check out some of those strategies with craft dimensioning and such as the added 300kg of flotation from the central nacelle and docking with the larger hulls that can carry more panels and make more hull speed with each watt due to much greater waterline. I will be self certifying the craft (builder's plate, experienced with building to survey)
Needs correction, flat roof on four telescopic pillars (shear pin). Details are in the project thread
We really should take this discussion over to the main project thread. I think the controller is chosen and if it can't hold up then will look at one better than the Victron according to one benchmarking that I came across
Anyway, click on the EVRE in the original post of the project thread. This is ample power to come on when the panels can't keep up.
ICG, it may seem that way but if you got up to speed on the project thread and my musing and problem-solving then you will see it's a very feasible project
@Randy Bassinga
My point in suggesting the connection of your dc-dc converter in parallel with the CC and battery would provide a stable output. Isolated from the battery, your motor output would vary with every pitch and roll or passing cloud.
I felt certain that you'd have alt propulsion but figured it would be a small kicker... the crabclaw sail did surprise me. Not so much in the choice to use a sail but choosing a such an historical design over something like a high aspect, square top, loose-footed wingsail. That may be more appropriate for the foiling mkII version.
Have fun with the build and solving all the little puzzles.
My point in suggesting the connection of your dc-dc converter in parallel with the CC and battery would provide a stable output. Isolated from the battery, your motor output would vary with every pitch and roll or passing cloud.
I felt certain that you'd have alt propulsion but figured it would be a small kicker... the crabclaw sail did surprise me. Not so much in the choice to use a sail but choosing a such an historical design over something like a high aspect, square top, loose-footed wingsail. That may be more appropriate for the foiling mkII version.
Have fun with the build and solving all the little puzzles.
Lot to sort out before any sailing. I have all the sails and rigging for this thing. It’s difficult to explain how but the crabs claw is shape only for shade at anchor or beach. But raised would form bi-wings with the booms turning into masts in each fore quarter. Splitting the sail loading over two shorter rigs
I need to set up a small solar system at home too. To get my digital audio gear and data off the mains and onto a solar/battery/inverter system. I picked up a new 12v 110AH AGM just over an year ago together with the Watersnake. This hasn't seen any use but been topped up every few months. I won’t drag this heavy thing onto the boat. The 12v 100AH LiFePO4 arrived today. I am open to sourcing better panels to fit the roof. I can always use the current panels and AGM battery for the home array. There is not much load there
Roof wise, rigid bifacial panels used as the roof would harvest light reflected off of the water for a nominal gain. Half-cell panels are another more efficient option to look at for a cost/performance comparison. Standard panels that I've used are vary a bit, from ~ 0.1W/sq-in to 0.12W/sq-in.
If the listed dimensions are correct for the panels you bought, 100W would put them right at that 0.1W/sq-in figure. If they fill your intended roof area without much wasted space, you're good to go at a budget price. If any significant space is left open, looking for panels with LxW dimensions that give more complete coverage might be worth your time.
I'd start with the horizontal, day long test of the panels you've already ordered in series and use a logger or manually take readings on an hourly basis before doing much else. I've reconsidered the suggestion to test the setup afloat. Pitch and roll effects are incalculable but will net close to 0 anyway.
If the listed dimensions are correct for the panels you bought, 100W would put them right at that 0.1W/sq-in figure. If they fill your intended roof area without much wasted space, you're good to go at a budget price. If any significant space is left open, looking for panels with LxW dimensions that give more complete coverage might be worth your time.
I'd start with the horizontal, day long test of the panels you've already ordered in series and use a logger or manually take readings on an hourly basis before doing much else. I've reconsidered the suggestion to test the setup afloat. Pitch and roll effects are incalculable but will net close to 0 anyway.