Hi, I recently completed my first subwoofer build where I've put together a Dayton Audio DCS165 and a plate amp mivoc AM80 mk2. Tne aim of the project was to create a cheap and small sub to fatten up the sound of the Dali Spektor 2 and marantz PM6005.
When I connected it to the amp I quickly realised that the Dalis are a lot louder, making the sub inaudible.
The sub is connected to the "B" speaker output, both left and right connections.
I would like to save this build by exploring these options
A) check if there is anything wrong with the build
B) Consider a more efficient speaker for the sub
C) Use this sub in a new 2.1 build with two extra speakers matched wit the output of the sub
Attached the WinIsd screenshots, the only potential problem is that excursion at 60W exceeds XMax, so can't really push the driver. I have the feeling in general this is more a driver for a 3 way speaker rather than low-low sub.
I looked into alternatives and the TangBand W8-740P seems a good replacement in a small enclosure, with 1-2db extra output across the whole range (in purple in screenshots attached).
Anyone can shed some light on this project? And can recommend a driver to consider? I can accomodate up to 8" speaker.
When I connected it to the amp I quickly realised that the Dalis are a lot louder, making the sub inaudible.
The sub is connected to the "B" speaker output, both left and right connections.
I would like to save this build by exploring these options
A) check if there is anything wrong with the build
B) Consider a more efficient speaker for the sub
C) Use this sub in a new 2.1 build with two extra speakers matched wit the output of the sub
Attached the WinIsd screenshots, the only potential problem is that excursion at 60W exceeds XMax, so can't really push the driver. I have the feeling in general this is more a driver for a 3 way speaker rather than low-low sub.
I looked into alternatives and the TangBand W8-740P seems a good replacement in a small enclosure, with 1-2db extra output across the whole range (in purple in screenshots attached).
Anyone can shed some light on this project? And can recommend a driver to consider? I can accomodate up to 8" speaker.
Attachments
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A couple of things:
1. First pic suggests that the box might be slightly too big for the driver
2. 1~2dB increase in possible peak SPL isn't really noticeable. If you're looking for a significant increase, look for a solution that's capable of 6 or more dB linear output over your current solution.
3. Thin slot vents can be very lossy. Do you have a means of measuring the Fb of your build, its frequency response and its impedance curve?
4. Is the DCS165 driver hitting its excursion limits trying to keep up with the Dalis? (Nice speakers BTW)?
5. Have you tried locating your subwoofer along one wall, near to a corner?
FWIW, for your main system, I'd recommend a subwoofer based around a decent 10" or larger subwoofer driver. For my main system (Mission 751s), I use a DIY subwoofer built using a 10" driver with 18mm Xmax, driven with a 250W amp.
1. First pic suggests that the box might be slightly too big for the driver
2. 1~2dB increase in possible peak SPL isn't really noticeable. If you're looking for a significant increase, look for a solution that's capable of 6 or more dB linear output over your current solution.
3. Thin slot vents can be very lossy. Do you have a means of measuring the Fb of your build, its frequency response and its impedance curve?
4. Is the DCS165 driver hitting its excursion limits trying to keep up with the Dalis? (Nice speakers BTW)?
5. Have you tried locating your subwoofer along one wall, near to a corner?
FWIW, for your main system, I'd recommend a subwoofer based around a decent 10" or larger subwoofer driver. For my main system (Mission 751s), I use a DIY subwoofer built using a 10" driver with 18mm Xmax, driven with a 250W amp.
I totally see what you mean about bigger speakers and amplifier.
I'll use the sub in a relatively small room (5m x 4m approx). The aim was to have something that could go quite low to watch movies with a small footprint sub.
Also here in UK BK Geminis are available for about £200, so my build had to be cheaper to justify the DIY route.
Looking at bigger speakers, looks like I would gain a few db but lose deep bass. I just modeled the Peerless XLS10 in the same size enclosure (0.5 ft3) and I would gain about 3db at 60w compared to the other two, but it would have an F3 of 43hz vs 35hz for the DCS165 and Tang Band W8. Attached the graphs for Peerless XLS10 (blue) Tang Band W8 (green) and DCS165 (green)
Does that mean that big boxes and lots of power is the winning combination?
I'll use the sub in a relatively small room (5m x 4m approx). The aim was to have something that could go quite low to watch movies with a small footprint sub.
Also here in UK BK Geminis are available for about £200, so my build had to be cheaper to justify the DIY route.
Looking at bigger speakers, looks like I would gain a few db but lose deep bass. I just modeled the Peerless XLS10 in the same size enclosure (0.5 ft3) and I would gain about 3db at 60w compared to the other two, but it would have an F3 of 43hz vs 35hz for the DCS165 and Tang Band W8. Attached the graphs for Peerless XLS10 (blue) Tang Band W8 (green) and DCS165 (green)
Does that mean that big boxes and lots of power is the winning combination?
Attachments
Efficiency at low frequencies is largely a function of the box size and "order" of the enclosure (i.e. for a given box size, a properly-designed vented system will be more efficient than a sealed system). Peak SPL will be a function of the efficiency and the driver's large signal capabilities (e.g. more Xmax = greater SPL).
To put it simply - if you want more SPL, you'll gave to go with a larger box and a better driver, and look for at least a 6dB increase in peak SPL capability.
To put it simply - if you want more SPL, you'll gave to go with a larger box and a better driver, and look for at least a 6dB increase in peak SPL capability.
How serious are the jbl 2214h woofers from l100t. Have a pair I'm buying for 100 if it's a good deal ? Need help should be i
SB23MFCL45-4
http://loudspeakerfreaks.com/datasheets/sba/SB23MFCL45-4.pdf
Works in the same size box you have.
But I think what you need is a 150-200W amp.
80w and a 6.5" just wont get you very far. A good 8" and 200W will.
http://loudspeakerfreaks.com/datasheets/sba/SB23MFCL45-4.pdf
Works in the same size box you have.
But I think what you need is a 150-200W amp.
80w and a 6.5" just wont get you very far. A good 8" and 200W will.
Thanks everyone for the info. I had the chance to compare different drivers in WinIsd these days, these were the most interesting ones
- Tang Band W8-740P - 8" - 120W - 12mm xmax
- Peerless XLS10 - 10" - 120W - 12.5mm xmax
- Mivoc AW2000 - 8" - 120w - 6.5mm - 35€!!!
Currently the DCS165 reaches xmax at 50W, with 99db.
The TangBand has a similar efficiency but can be pushed to 80W reaching 102db. They have similar F3 at 35hz.
The Peerless really wants a box at least 0.8 ft3, in this case it's 2 extra db louder than the TangBand at 80w.
The Mivoc performs quite similar to the Peerless in a box 0.9 ft3 (impressive for the price) but reaches xmax at 80w.
The peerless really seems like an upgrade, and even if I'll change the plate amp I'll be able to get more out of it. I'd have to make a new enclosure though, I live in London and I don't have all the tools or a place to do woodworking...
The TangBand allows me to keep the current box, slightly higher SPL and still goes low. I'm still a fan of it.
The Mivoc is a great budget option, I wish I modeled it in the first place, but then again wants a bigger box.
Below the graphs in my current box (0.5 ft3) and the graphs with an ideal box for flat response
- TangBand 0.5ft3 - fb 35hz - GREEN
Peerless 0.8 ft3 - fb 35hz - RED
Mivoc 0.9 ft3 - fb 35hz - BLUE
included a 3rd order highpass filter at 20hz and a 2nd order at 150hz (these is how the plate amp works).
Questions
- What do you think of the response of the peerless in 0.5 box? F3 at 45hz seems a bit high to me.
- In my build I included a sheet of wood to seal the plate amp and keep it away from vibrations, is it worth keeping? If not, I should be able to gain extra space.
- Tang Band W8-740P - 8" - 120W - 12mm xmax
- Peerless XLS10 - 10" - 120W - 12.5mm xmax
- Mivoc AW2000 - 8" - 120w - 6.5mm - 35€!!!
Currently the DCS165 reaches xmax at 50W, with 99db.
The TangBand has a similar efficiency but can be pushed to 80W reaching 102db. They have similar F3 at 35hz.
The Peerless really wants a box at least 0.8 ft3, in this case it's 2 extra db louder than the TangBand at 80w.
The Mivoc performs quite similar to the Peerless in a box 0.9 ft3 (impressive for the price) but reaches xmax at 80w.
The peerless really seems like an upgrade, and even if I'll change the plate amp I'll be able to get more out of it. I'd have to make a new enclosure though, I live in London and I don't have all the tools or a place to do woodworking...
The TangBand allows me to keep the current box, slightly higher SPL and still goes low. I'm still a fan of it.
The Mivoc is a great budget option, I wish I modeled it in the first place, but then again wants a bigger box.
Below the graphs in my current box (0.5 ft3) and the graphs with an ideal box for flat response
- TangBand 0.5ft3 - fb 35hz - GREEN
Peerless 0.8 ft3 - fb 35hz - RED
Mivoc 0.9 ft3 - fb 35hz - BLUE
included a 3rd order highpass filter at 20hz and a 2nd order at 150hz (these is how the plate amp works).
Questions
- What do you think of the response of the peerless in 0.5 box? F3 at 45hz seems a bit high to me.
- In my build I included a sheet of wood to seal the plate amp and keep it away from vibrations, is it worth keeping? If not, I should be able to gain extra space.
Thanks for sharing such valuable information with all of us. You have helped us to clear many doubts.
I wouldn't build another sub just yet. First, verify this one is working properly.
Where did you set the crossover and level controls? Did you get any sound out of the sub at all?
I think your problem might simply be a lack of gain in the plate amp, and swapping a few resistors (cost: pennies) will get things moving in the right direction.
Chris
Where did you set the crossover and level controls? Did you get any sound out of the sub at all?
I think your problem might simply be a lack of gain in the plate amp, and swapping a few resistors (cost: pennies) will get things moving in the right direction.
Chris