Sometimes delay, sometimes response/phase.
You are doing very well now. This kind of DSP is not the real answer, but a shortcut.
There are several factors that go into making those drivers smooth and clear.
It's a particular kind and shape of paper along with air-gaping and adhesive.. and that's just the diaphragm. The way the diaphragm flex's (and is damped) in connection with the surround is also very important.
Beyond that the motor is very sophisticated.
Most paper drivers I would NOT recommend.. the better ones can be very clear, but smooth isn't an attribute that I'd apply to them. (..physically the diaphragm's on most paper drivers are quite stiff - and it rarely results in a smooth character.)
IF you "dope" (usually adding one or more coats of a poly compound) a paper driver though, then it starts taking-on that "smooth" character (to an extent), but you usually wind-up with less subjective detail.
Good poly cones are what I think of when I think "smooth".. BUT again: not so great with detail. ..an exception are the magnesium loaded Audio Technology drivers, which sound more like "doped" metal cones.
Flexunits 4 H 52 06 13
Great input
How about carbon fibre?
Titsnium or aluminium?
Ceramic?
Im sure illuminator would work great
Some more suggestions as below, Wide range is good and it allow me to try out different crossover frequencies
Dynaudio Esotar² 650 Bass-Midrange (Pair)
600eur
Morel TSCW-636 Carbon-Membran
370 eur
Accuton C173-6-191 Ceramik Bass Midrange Driver
330eur
Monacor SPH 165 CP Carbon
147eur
Wavecor WF182CU12 Glasfiber-Membran, Midwoofer
Looks great with it's aluminium phace plug
190 Eur
Visaton TI 100 Titan
Looks great
Interesting Specs! To small?
144eur
SB Acoustics 6½ Satori MR16P-4 Midrange, very Wide range
155 eur
How about carbon fibre?
Titsnium or aluminium?
Ceramic?
Im sure illuminator would work great
Some more suggestions as below, Wide range is good and it allow me to try out different crossover frequencies
Dynaudio Esotar² 650 Bass-Midrange (Pair)
600eur
Morel TSCW-636 Carbon-Membran
370 eur
Accuton C173-6-191 Ceramik Bass Midrange Driver
330eur
Monacor SPH 165 CP Carbon
147eur
Wavecor WF182CU12 Glasfiber-Membran, Midwoofer
Looks great with it's aluminium phace plug
190 Eur
Visaton TI 100 Titan
Looks great
Interesting Specs! To small?
144eur
SB Acoustics 6½ Satori MR16P-4 Midrange, very Wide range
155 eur
The Esotar's are similar to the AT drivers.. but it's generally preferred to have a smaller lower-mass driver for the midrange, so I wouldn't go for the Esotar's unless it's the 430 (at least compared to the AT Flex Unit I linked).
That particular Morel is fantastic, but it's more on the subjective side of detail than smooth. (..it's still pretty smooth mind you, it's just that it has more detail with the right loading than others.) On the other hand, it has more mms and a larger diameter. The diameter means that it will likely be a bit more fussy with integration below about 2.2 kHz (..which is still better than it's diameter would suggest).
Accuton more clear, less smooth and even more difficult to integrate.
The Visaton is a very nice driver.. but again: clarity but not particularly smooth sounding (though not "edgy" sounding like some of the paper drivers, like the Satori).
Any of the driver's can be given more of a "smooth" character (at least a bit lower in freq.) by over-stuffing the enclosure for that driver - at the expense of a reduced depth-of-field. At that point you might as well go with a Peerless TC9F with the right loading, giving you smooth character and less detail, but still providing good depth-of-field. (..and "pocket" a whole lot of money from the savings.)
That particular Morel is fantastic, but it's more on the subjective side of detail than smooth. (..it's still pretty smooth mind you, it's just that it has more detail with the right loading than others.) On the other hand, it has more mms and a larger diameter. The diameter means that it will likely be a bit more fussy with integration below about 2.2 kHz (..which is still better than it's diameter would suggest).
Accuton more clear, less smooth and even more difficult to integrate.
The Visaton is a very nice driver.. but again: clarity but not particularly smooth sounding (though not "edgy" sounding like some of the paper drivers, like the Satori).
Any of the driver's can be given more of a "smooth" character (at least a bit lower in freq.) by over-stuffing the enclosure for that driver - at the expense of a reduced depth-of-field. At that point you might as well go with a Peerless TC9F with the right loading, giving you smooth character and less detail, but still providing good depth-of-field. (..and "pocket" a whole lot of money from the savings.)
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The FLEXUNITS 4 H 52 06 13 SD seems very nice and will give a great flexibility of crossover wich i lile to play with.
The critical frequencies are 1000 hz for the AEtd15m and 1800 hz for the Beyma tpl200 so its a small window to cover.
Maybe i should try to crossover as low as possible to the AMT , 1800hz?
500 to 1000hz up from the AEtd15m?
From that perspective maybe i should choose a little bit bigger driver to have a softer sound?
Maybe a 8" carbon? In a overstuffed enclosure
The esostar that i thought of is the 6.5"
Thank you for your advise
The critical frequencies are 1000 hz for the AEtd15m and 1800 hz for the Beyma tpl200 so its a small window to cover.
Maybe i should try to crossover as low as possible to the AMT , 1800hz?
500 to 1000hz up from the AEtd15m?
From that perspective maybe i should choose a little bit bigger driver to have a softer sound?
Maybe a 8" carbon? In a overstuffed enclosure
The esostar that i thought of is the 6.5"
Thank you for your advise
Again:
So ideally the midrange passband would be about 300-2K.
The larger the midrange, the greater the pressure loss OFF-AXIS (at higher freq.s) - which makes getting a good horizontal polar between Tweeter & Midrange more difficult. Plus, larger midrange's tend have less detail than smaller ones (..though respective of efficiency).
You can always try lowering the freq. for the tweeter's high-pass, but remember to check it vs. spl.. Higher spl often results in increased distortion because of that lower freq. filter (..slope dependent).
So ideally the midrange passband would be about 300-2K.
The larger the midrange, the greater the pressure loss OFF-AXIS (at higher freq.s) - which makes getting a good horizontal polar between Tweeter & Midrange more difficult. Plus, larger midrange's tend have less detail than smaller ones (..though respective of efficiency).
You can always try lowering the freq. for the tweeter's high-pass, but remember to check it vs. spl.. Higher spl often results in increased distortion because of that lower freq. filter (..slope dependent).
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Hej Marcus,
you have already received some very good hints and suggestions, and I will throw some of my thoughts into the discussion as well:
- having separate and different drivers reproducing 1kHz and working well together is a difficult task. Driver integration would be easier to handle with a lower CO frequency of 300Hz, as already suggested. Sure, with brutal DSP you can correct nearly everything to a straight line, but will it sound good?
- the AE15 is most probably good until 1kHz, but I would suggest to not use it that high. Instead, use it´s cleanliness as headroom for shallower filter slopes.
- the same "concept" could apply to your midrange driver in search. Having a wide-band driver where possible breakups, irregularities and problems are far away from the intended frequency band will allow a lot of headroom for experiments and shallower filter slopes.
- smoothness combined with detail is well possible, and with a good paper driver also.
- beside the driver quality, your mechanical solutions will have great influence on both perceived smoothness and detail. Some keywords are diffraction control, baffle shape, baffle decoupling, midrange enclosure design (check out XRK´s nautaloss and the tapered stuffed TMLs, forgot the name, as internal midrange enclosures), progressive stuffing and several more. Just buying a nice driver for many thousands of kronors will not lead to a good result automatically, all else has to be of top quality as well. Don´t put good drivers in simple square chipboard boxes...
Hälsningar
Mattes
you have already received some very good hints and suggestions, and I will throw some of my thoughts into the discussion as well:
- having separate and different drivers reproducing 1kHz and working well together is a difficult task. Driver integration would be easier to handle with a lower CO frequency of 300Hz, as already suggested. Sure, with brutal DSP you can correct nearly everything to a straight line, but will it sound good?
- the AE15 is most probably good until 1kHz, but I would suggest to not use it that high. Instead, use it´s cleanliness as headroom for shallower filter slopes.
- the same "concept" could apply to your midrange driver in search. Having a wide-band driver where possible breakups, irregularities and problems are far away from the intended frequency band will allow a lot of headroom for experiments and shallower filter slopes.
- smoothness combined with detail is well possible, and with a good paper driver also.
- beside the driver quality, your mechanical solutions will have great influence on both perceived smoothness and detail. Some keywords are diffraction control, baffle shape, baffle decoupling, midrange enclosure design (check out XRK´s nautaloss and the tapered stuffed TMLs, forgot the name, as internal midrange enclosures), progressive stuffing and several more. Just buying a nice driver for many thousands of kronors will not lead to a good result automatically, all else has to be of top quality as well. Don´t put good drivers in simple square chipboard boxes...
Hälsningar
Mattes
Hello ScottG,
What do you think about the Eton honeycombs with rohacell core please for that midrange discussion ?
The ones I heard in ready made speakers were sounding on the smooth side and detailed while lacking of body but here I believe it is a spl curve integration in the highs..
Was thinking of a canadian loudspeaker brand...
What do you think about the Eton honeycombs with rohacell core please for that midrange discussion ?
The ones I heard in ready made speakers were sounding on the smooth side and detailed while lacking of body but here I believe it is a spl curve integration in the highs..
Was thinking of a canadian loudspeaker brand...
You need to account for baffle step which on standard narrow baffle occurs around 500Hz. Fiddle a bit with edge and You'll quickly find out that bass driver should be substantially more effective than midrange. Standard baffles gives you bump (depends on baffle size) that goes from ~~ 500Hz to ~~2000+Hz. For that very reason it's best to have crossover around that points to adjust everything easily, and You don't have to worry too much if mid is less effective than bass or tweet.
All the good advice i am really taking it in.
Some people told me there would be no problem to crossover at 1000 Hz and some told me to cross much lower
May idea at first was to cross as high as possible from my woofers but i realize the benefits of crossover lower
I also realize time i have been wrong about cone diameters and around 4" to 5" will be the range that i will look in.
Now the midrange driver will have a much more important role in this system and i will aim att 300 to 4000hz
I am looking into all the suggestions
The amt sounds great in the temporary soloution om top of a 6.5" bookshelf
Some people told me there would be no problem to crossover at 1000 Hz and some told me to cross much lower
May idea at first was to cross as high as possible from my woofers but i realize the benefits of crossover lower
I also realize time i have been wrong about cone diameters and around 4" to 5" will be the range that i will look in.
Now the midrange driver will have a much more important role in this system and i will aim att 300 to 4000hz
I am looking into all the suggestions
The amt sounds great in the temporary soloution om top of a 6.5" bookshelf
I will make a spreadsheet with all drivers mentioned here.
Frequency range, spl Price, characteristics.
Since i was looking for from the beginning changed might add some more drivers that i've been checking out.
Than they can ranked.
Nobody has been something about phce issues so far, when we talk about crossover not very steep it means overlap.
I have been calculating with having to deal with these problems later
Frequency range, spl Price, characteristics.
Since i was looking for from the beginning changed might add some more drivers that i've been checking out.
Than they can ranked.
Nobody has been something about phce issues so far, when we talk about crossover not very steep it means overlap.
I have been calculating with having to deal with these problems later
To go as high than 4k hz you need some 2.53 Sd or 2"...so it will not go as low as 300 hz or at the price of a very low spl ans sriffer cone with more break-ups in the highs so less smooth like the Tang Band w4 4".
The Neo10 equaluzed seems a good trade off. Also have a look about the ER Audio 505 mini panel...again at a spl price, so as ScottG stated out as othets...what spl do you need ?
If more LineSources Faital ref or an eq horn may suit your tastes....trade offs trade offs
The Neo10 equaluzed seems a good trade off. Also have a look about the ER Audio 505 mini panel...again at a spl price, so as ScottG stated out as othets...what spl do you need ?
If more LineSources Faital ref or an eq horn may suit your tastes....trade offs trade offs
In context to the Eton foam core drivers:
Very good detail & good tone (an unusual combination).. BUT they can often sound a bit "zippy" (leading edge emphasis) that's rather the opposite of "smooth" (..and is even off-putting to some: often females). Still, it's rather driver dependent within their range of drivers, but not a single one I'd describe as being particularly "smooth" in character.
Objectively their drivers are exceedingly "hit & miss", and are very dependent on the freq. range/bandwidth/passband they will be used for.
I personally like them (when you use the right driver for the right bandwidth/passband).
You can go even farther with this type of sound with Gorlich drivers (also foam core).. In fact some of the best sounding dynamic drivers IMO between about 150-800 Hz (clarity + tone), but very *"zippy" sounding above about 1.2 kHz. They aren't great either when it comes to objective performance (..with often sub-par non-linear distortion depending on the driver and the passband).
ex.
Ensemble Primadonna 6 - YouTube
You can actually get a similar sound to the slightly larger Eton's but with greater "smooth" character from the Morel Carbon (Titanium) driver - again, foam core. You give up a bit of "tone" character though when compared to the better Eton drivers but you gain in detail with the Titanium (Former) Morel when comparing drivers of similar Mms and near similar diameter. For your expressed desire of "smooth + detail" I'd recommend that particular Morel vs. any Eton foam-core driver.
*"Zippy" to me is when "tone" (in a harmonic context as opposed to a freq. balance) is taken to far: that low-level vibrant harmonic sound that is just too "free" or under-damped. Most of this happens at the junction between surround and the outer-edge of the diaphragm (..to a lesser degree at the connection between diaphragm and VC assembly + dust-cap (if any)). There is of course a substantive interaction between all those parts (often where the vibration at the surround effects the amount of added vibration at the dust-cap). The Morel by contrast doesn't really have this problem, its VC is comparatively large and stable and the integrated dust-cap is extremely stiff and NOT prone to bending.
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It just took my some time to accept that fact=)
Im going through every link you sent and i am very thankful for yours and everyone elses opinions
Needed to go to work just a little bit but im trying to make a spreadsheet of all this information
I will make sure i understand baffle step completely before i comment on it
the woofer was tested in this video
Acoustic Elegance TD15M hifi woofer Test and Review (redo) - YouTube
My cabinets are 160 Liters and tuned 50hz
Was trying to remove the back cap of the tweeters but there was some insulation and i didnt want to ruin it.
=)
Im going through every link you sent and i am very thankful for yours and everyone elses opinions
Needed to go to work just a little bit but im trying to make a spreadsheet of all this information
I will make sure i understand baffle step completely before i comment on it
the woofer was tested in this video
Acoustic Elegance TD15M hifi woofer Test and Review (redo) - YouTube
My cabinets are 160 Liters and tuned 50hz
Was trying to remove the back cap of the tweeters but there was some insulation and i didnt want to ruin it.
=)
-someone didn't even read the 1st page of the thread..