Hi everyone just joined for this after MANY results on google landing here.
So the story is I have my Pajero aka Montero Sport 2005 which I like, doing sound at the moment.
Here is my budget friendly setup I have:
KDC-BT73DAB head unit
Hertz Cento C165 speakers (front and back) freq 55-7k rears faded to half
Alpine S-S10TW tweeters freq 1 kHz - 22 kHz
In Phase USW10 Under seat subwoofer freq 40-150hz
I have tried many tweeters including the focal ones, anything else but them alpines are way too harsh for my taste even with eq settings spent hours get some songs right then others wrong. These Alpine S-S10TW are perfect for me.
I also have a set of 4x Audison Prima AP 6.5 freq 60 ÷ 5k Hz
Since I have a sort of a subwoofer (not the best but does the job) is it wiser to use the Audisons since they have lower bass and mids up to 5k?
Also, obviously the tweeters are overlapping with the speakers on the 1k-7k range. IS that ok or should I somehow limit the lower range and put a filter for them to start at 7k?
The hertz speakers are very good with bass, the seat subwoofer is set to 60hz and it sounds ok. The sound quality however is just not right to be fair, I had my freelander 1 from 2003 with harman kardon mopping the floor with this. That is what I am aiming in fairness I do not need nor want loud, just SQ. The subwoofer under seat was put there to help with bass whilst driving... That is where bass goes away evaporating.
Ah yes all four doors are properly sound proof, both inside the panel and the door itself with dynamat outer and some soft 3mm inner, not a single rattle anywhere. That part I am confident it's well sorted.
Thanks
Paul
So the story is I have my Pajero aka Montero Sport 2005 which I like, doing sound at the moment.
Here is my budget friendly setup I have:
KDC-BT73DAB head unit
Hertz Cento C165 speakers (front and back) freq 55-7k rears faded to half
Alpine S-S10TW tweeters freq 1 kHz - 22 kHz
In Phase USW10 Under seat subwoofer freq 40-150hz
I have tried many tweeters including the focal ones, anything else but them alpines are way too harsh for my taste even with eq settings spent hours get some songs right then others wrong. These Alpine S-S10TW are perfect for me.
I also have a set of 4x Audison Prima AP 6.5 freq 60 ÷ 5k Hz
Since I have a sort of a subwoofer (not the best but does the job) is it wiser to use the Audisons since they have lower bass and mids up to 5k?
Also, obviously the tweeters are overlapping with the speakers on the 1k-7k range. IS that ok or should I somehow limit the lower range and put a filter for them to start at 7k?
The hertz speakers are very good with bass, the seat subwoofer is set to 60hz and it sounds ok. The sound quality however is just not right to be fair, I had my freelander 1 from 2003 with harman kardon mopping the floor with this. That is what I am aiming in fairness I do not need nor want loud, just SQ. The subwoofer under seat was put there to help with bass whilst driving... That is where bass goes away evaporating.
Ah yes all four doors are properly sound proof, both inside the panel and the door itself with dynamat outer and some soft 3mm inner, not a single rattle anywhere. That part I am confident it's well sorted.
Thanks
Paul
Hi, i am convinced that it is not practical to do SQ without an amplifier, for me it is almost impossible.
But everyone makes their own choices.
Instead, the soundproofing of the doors was a great step.
I don't know the speakers you use, and i suppose that the frequency filtering is done by the HU, but your questions can only be answered with your ears in my opinion.
You have already understood that for you the best tweeters are the Alpine ones and that some songs are reproduced according to your tastes and others not.
Keep going like this, i cannot advise you that the audison ones are better because they go down more in frequency or that the Alpine ones are not good if they overlap.
No one can, because all cars are different and inside your car there is you who listens according to your personal tastes.
Obtaining music in the car at good levels is not easy, it's difficult, and you have to listen and work, it takes patience.
Do your tests, different filtering of the tweeters and mid-bass, with different speakers you have.
If you put time and work into your setup, you will be happy with a listening experience that respects your ears. That's my opinion.
But everyone makes their own choices.
Instead, the soundproofing of the doors was a great step.
I don't know the speakers you use, and i suppose that the frequency filtering is done by the HU, but your questions can only be answered with your ears in my opinion.
You have already understood that for you the best tweeters are the Alpine ones and that some songs are reproduced according to your tastes and others not.
Keep going like this, i cannot advise you that the audison ones are better because they go down more in frequency or that the Alpine ones are not good if they overlap.
No one can, because all cars are different and inside your car there is you who listens according to your personal tastes.
Obtaining music in the car at good levels is not easy, it's difficult, and you have to listen and work, it takes patience.
Do your tests, different filtering of the tweeters and mid-bass, with different speakers you have.
If you put time and work into your setup, you will be happy with a listening experience that respects your ears. That's my opinion.
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Yep te final speaker setup is audison voce, in my experience and I tried them all they are the nicest quality.
hertz they scream at you great for power but nah...
Fronts are Audison Voce av6.5: https://audison.com/product/av-6-5/
Rears are Audison Prima AP6.5P: https://audison.com/product/ap-6-5p/
Rear fill will be faded to half and will add some time delay like 18ms or so as well. Freq in the doors will be 60hz and up and the sub as well, don't want 50hz in the door the speakers respond to that but I don't think I should because the Mitsubishi has very thin doors comparing to Ford Mondeo for example. Even with the best sound proof, it's not very deep.
hertz they scream at you great for power but nah...
Fronts are Audison Voce av6.5: https://audison.com/product/av-6-5/
Rears are Audison Prima AP6.5P: https://audison.com/product/ap-6-5p/
Rear fill will be faded to half and will add some time delay like 18ms or so as well. Freq in the doors will be 60hz and up and the sub as well, don't want 50hz in the door the speakers respond to that but I don't think I should because the Mitsubishi has very thin doors comparing to Ford Mondeo for example. Even with the best sound proof, it's not very deep.
I understand your point of view and i can agree with your calculations to make a good setup.
However i always recommend starting from one point but then listening to the result, and possibly trying to change something to improve.
Never take anything for granted.
When the subwoofer is under the seat it is closer to the door speakers, so the filtering between the two could be simpler and a cut at 60Hz or even higher, satisfactory.
It always depends on the musical result, a filtering at 50Hz could also be good, after all the doors are treated and the useful power of the HU is around 20 watts RMS/ch.
If there is a problem for the low frequencies it could be a good solution to double the subwoofer with another equal unit under the passenger seat.
In reality, considering the space that the Pajero offers, in my opinion the solution for the sub is better with a box in the trunk, because you can use a larger driver (8, 10, 12"...) and therefore more versatile and performing.
But first, the best procedure for me is to insert a separate amplification.
1000 watts are not necessary, much less but clean and realistic are enough.
It is a real leap in quality.
The internal amplifier of the HU is a bottleneck and heats up too much for the HU circuits.
It is in the low-end but offers three pre-outs, and it would be very useful to take advantage of them.
The audison speakers could be good, the declared data seem to be a good compromise for the door but what matters in the end is a satisfying listening even in combination with everything else, so you have to try.
I know i could be boring but it is so.
But those are just my 2 cents.
I imagine that the rear tw are also the Alpine S-S10TW.
However i always recommend starting from one point but then listening to the result, and possibly trying to change something to improve.
Never take anything for granted.
When the subwoofer is under the seat it is closer to the door speakers, so the filtering between the two could be simpler and a cut at 60Hz or even higher, satisfactory.
It always depends on the musical result, a filtering at 50Hz could also be good, after all the doors are treated and the useful power of the HU is around 20 watts RMS/ch.
If there is a problem for the low frequencies it could be a good solution to double the subwoofer with another equal unit under the passenger seat.
In reality, considering the space that the Pajero offers, in my opinion the solution for the sub is better with a box in the trunk, because you can use a larger driver (8, 10, 12"...) and therefore more versatile and performing.
But first, the best procedure for me is to insert a separate amplification.
1000 watts are not necessary, much less but clean and realistic are enough.
It is a real leap in quality.
The internal amplifier of the HU is a bottleneck and heats up too much for the HU circuits.
It is in the low-end but offers three pre-outs, and it would be very useful to take advantage of them.
The audison speakers could be good, the declared data seem to be a good compromise for the door but what matters in the end is a satisfying listening even in combination with everything else, so you have to try.
I know i could be boring but it is so.
But those are just my 2 cents.
I imagine that the rear tw are also the Alpine S-S10TW.
Hey yep I purchased a Kenwood KAC-M1814 amp, not the best nor much powerful but it will help along filtering frequencies on doors and tiny bit of extra power which I will not use. And I will play with it once all set.
No rear tweeters, not putting much effort in the rear since they will be faded anyway without fade the sound is horrible. The rears are Audison Prima AP 6.5 and I will prob put freq of max 3500 on them. If I put full range speakers in there they will have to be further faded because they make the front sound garbage.
No rear tweeters, not putting much effort in the rear since they will be faded anyway without fade the sound is horrible. The rears are Audison Prima AP 6.5 and I will prob put freq of max 3500 on them. If I put full range speakers in there they will have to be further faded because they make the front sound garbage.
I'm not sure whether you mentioned any crossover?
I once did an installation for a friend, using existing focal 6,5" drivers and adding small 0,8" peerless tweeters.
I measured the drivers outside the car (but only on axis, big mistake!) and made a first passive circuit with crossover frequency at about 2 kHz.
The initial sound was unbearable. There was way too much energy above 2 kHz from the non-directive tweeter, and much less energy below 2 kHz (maybe down to 1 kHz where the woofers start to be omnidirectional) from the lower mounted and much more directive woofers.
The solution was to reduce the tweeter energy around 2 kHz by reducing the series cap value.
Tweeters in a car have several nearby surfaces that act like a waveguide or at least increase the early reflections. That will amplify the "harsh" sounding frequency range.
The tweeters sound ok, and they are directional. I can move them around, my issue is not with the tweeters they sound great.
Once you have arranged everything it's important to carefully adjust the gain of the amplifier (input sensitivity), on this the cleaning of the sound depends and the possibility of listening to the sound without distortion, which is very important for the integrity of the speakers.
The power of the amplifier is not excessive, in my opinion when you are used to use it will also have fun at maximum volume.
For frequency cuts you can use the electronic crossover of the amplifier or that of the HU.
The rear speakers are a very heated discussion point among fans, but i think it depends largely on the project that everyone wants to complete.
There are those who speak of a rear system or rear fill and can be understood as an integration system for the front or a dedicated system for rear passengers with different settings of reproduced frequencies.
If the adjustments are accurate i don't know if it can make the front sound garbage, in all situations.
But if your ears say so, ok.
stv was probably talking about the tweeters Focal and others not satisfactory.
The power of the amplifier is not excessive, in my opinion when you are used to use it will also have fun at maximum volume.
For frequency cuts you can use the electronic crossover of the amplifier or that of the HU.
The rear speakers are a very heated discussion point among fans, but i think it depends largely on the project that everyone wants to complete.
There are those who speak of a rear system or rear fill and can be understood as an integration system for the front or a dedicated system for rear passengers with different settings of reproduced frequencies.
If the adjustments are accurate i don't know if it can make the front sound garbage, in all situations.
But if your ears say so, ok.
stv was probably talking about the tweeters Focal and others not satisfactory.
hey completed today
so final stuff:
Front: Audison Voce AV 6.5 = 50 ÷ 7k Hz
Rear: Audison AP 6.5P = 50 ÷ 5k Hz
Amplifier: Kenwood KAC-M1814 (4 channel dsp 45w)
Under seat subwoofer Inphase USW10: 50 ÷ 100Hz
The amplifier surely helps. Now I have a question on setting frequencies to have a point of start, general recommendations is 80hz and above (kenwood has a HPF which I am using) however I am not sure on what to set the subwoofer. If I set it to let's say 60 will it play 60 only or up to 60? if so, I will have a gap of 20hz...
If I set it to lowest 50hz the sound is a little bit weird.
so final stuff:
Front: Audison Voce AV 6.5 = 50 ÷ 7k Hz
Rear: Audison AP 6.5P = 50 ÷ 5k Hz
Amplifier: Kenwood KAC-M1814 (4 channel dsp 45w)
Under seat subwoofer Inphase USW10: 50 ÷ 100Hz
The amplifier surely helps. Now I have a question on setting frequencies to have a point of start, general recommendations is 80hz and above (kenwood has a HPF which I am using) however I am not sure on what to set the subwoofer. If I set it to let's say 60 will it play 60 only or up to 60? if so, I will have a gap of 20hz...
If I set it to lowest 50hz the sound is a little bit weird.
The reproduction of frequencies is not a perfectly mathematical operation: if you set the LPF on the subwoofer to 60Hz and the mw audison with HPF to 80Hz, it does not mean that there is a 20Hz gap when listening.
Maybe yes or maybe no, or it could be necessary to move the crossover to 70Hz, to 80Hz and even set an overlap at 90Hz (or 80/70/60 etc..).
Note that i said move the crossover, in this case it's not correct to indicate to intervene only on the LPF of the sub.
Instead, it could be necessary to move the HPF of the audison down.
Or both filters.
This is because this type of adjustment depends on many factors, such as the design of the speakers, the degree of soundproofing of the doors, the shape of the car's interior and the type of interior materials that can absorb or enhance some frequencies.
And probably the most important factor is personal taste for listening to music.
This is why you need to spend some time trying different solutions, it's not necessary to spend months (but some enthusiasts do it), but with a few hours or a few days of experiments you can understand which setup is best suited to your ears.
For the midbass, the lower the HPF setting is, the less power you can apply (and vice versa), because you get closer to the mechanical limits of the driver (but it is not a problem at all if the sound is ok, moreover the technical data of your audison say that the power of your amplifier is completely digestible at 50Hz).
The important thing, as i have already pointed out, is that at maximum volume there must be no distortion when listening but a completely clean sound.
It's not difficult, just a little challenging, the amplifier settings are clearly displayed on the chassis, or you can intervene from the HU.
This will be up to you to decide based on the results.
These are interesting operations to perform because you learn to associate these interventions with the sound and its behavior, and they give a lot of personal satisfaction because the result is defined by your listening objective.
Which is the best thing.
Maybe yes or maybe no, or it could be necessary to move the crossover to 70Hz, to 80Hz and even set an overlap at 90Hz (or 80/70/60 etc..).
Note that i said move the crossover, in this case it's not correct to indicate to intervene only on the LPF of the sub.
Instead, it could be necessary to move the HPF of the audison down.
Or both filters.
This is because this type of adjustment depends on many factors, such as the design of the speakers, the degree of soundproofing of the doors, the shape of the car's interior and the type of interior materials that can absorb or enhance some frequencies.
And probably the most important factor is personal taste for listening to music.
This is why you need to spend some time trying different solutions, it's not necessary to spend months (but some enthusiasts do it), but with a few hours or a few days of experiments you can understand which setup is best suited to your ears.
For the midbass, the lower the HPF setting is, the less power you can apply (and vice versa), because you get closer to the mechanical limits of the driver (but it is not a problem at all if the sound is ok, moreover the technical data of your audison say that the power of your amplifier is completely digestible at 50Hz).
The important thing, as i have already pointed out, is that at maximum volume there must be no distortion when listening but a completely clean sound.
It's not difficult, just a little challenging, the amplifier settings are clearly displayed on the chassis, or you can intervene from the HU.
This will be up to you to decide based on the results.
These are interesting operations to perform because you learn to associate these interventions with the sound and its behavior, and they give a lot of personal satisfaction because the result is defined by your listening objective.
Which is the best thing.
Usually in the crossover between the frequencies the same frequency is set on LPF and HPF.
I think that the most used crossover points between subwoofer and midbass are 60Hz and 70Hz, same frequency on LPF and HPF.
You could try with these two starting values, choose the one you like best or vary as i explained before.
Mine are suppositions.
I think that the most used crossover points between subwoofer and midbass are 60Hz and 70Hz, same frequency on LPF and HPF.
You could try with these two starting values, choose the one you like best or vary as i explained before.
Mine are suppositions.
I cannot use LPF on front doors, the tweeters go on same wiring.
So 60Hz up on speakers, 60 hz down on sub?
So 60Hz up on speakers, 60 hz down on sub?
If you download an RTA app for your phone, that may help get it setup right.
When I used to do this, I started with the lows set at 80 and the highs set at 100. Depending on the speakers, vehicle, crossovers... you will have to use whatever works.
When I used to do this, I started with the lows set at 80 and the highs set at 100. Depending on the speakers, vehicle, crossovers... you will have to use whatever works.
Yes, as a starting point it can be good in my opinion.
Then you can also try 70Hz to see if you like it better (or other).
In your case, the crossover point is set by two different devices: LPF directly on the sub and HPF on the amplifier potentiometers.
This can create a slight difference in the centering of the crossover frequency, but it's not a problem because the adjustment of the potentiometers is continuous and can be adjusted well by ear.
Or, if you want to find a more defined crossover point for both filters, perhaps you could make the adjustments directly from the HU, and leave the sub and amplifier filters flat.
The tweeter filter is included in the purchase package, but according to the technical data the cut is set to 1000Hz (a single 3.9 uF capacitor), while the audison ones have a high frequency response up to 7000Hz.
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item-174967-Alpine-S-S10TW.html
Here we enter the world of passive crossovers, which is more complicated.
Calculating your system, you can try some variations and choose the one you like best:
- single capacitor of about 3.3 uF
- single capacitor of about 2.2 uF
- capacitor of about 3.3 uF + inductance of about 0.27 mH
- capacitor of about 2.2 uF + inductance of about 0.27 mH
In fact, you can buy the passive components (the cost is limited) that i have indicated or even those that are closest.
Not all of these components are always available.
If you have the Alpine series filters, you can also try with those and possibly add the inductance that you can buy. As always, you must proceed according to your tastes.
Here you can find the connection diagram:
https://sound-au.com/articles/crossover-tables.htm
That rta app is an awesome recommandation 🙂 I know such thing exists but could not put my finger on it. I will use that to help me once I change the subwoofer on seat so I have control from the seat not having to go underneath for every adjustment.
Update: already found the issue with basic rta app and phone, I ordered a calibrated microphone for more detailed analysis but... for some reasons the 2.5Khz frequency was through the roof! so tuned that one down -3db and now it sounds waaay better almost perfect!
Thanks @Gioba, the tweeters seem to behave well. However I did order a pair of BMW harman kardon ones which are 4ohm and they will fit nicely in my 60mm hole. I will check them as well won't hurt they were very cheap and I imagine they have the right frequencies. I know they sound right...
Update: already found the issue with basic rta app and phone, I ordered a calibrated microphone for more detailed analysis but... for some reasons the 2.5Khz frequency was through the roof! so tuned that one down -3db and now it sounds waaay better almost perfect!
Thanks @Gioba, the tweeters seem to behave well. However I did order a pair of BMW harman kardon ones which are 4ohm and they will fit nicely in my 60mm hole. I will check them as well won't hurt they were very cheap and I imagine they have the right frequencies. I know they sound right...
Ok, i honestly would have invested in the subwoofer.
Of course, tweeters are also speakers to choose for your taste.
When you are testing, make sure and only do either left or right at a time as there can be odd cancellations and other effects when both sides are going together.
Also might need to reinforce the door panels with the extra power from an amp. 10mm polyethylene cutting boards can be cut to fit inside the door cavity with short screws through the door’s inner sheetmetal.
You probably need protection capacitors for the tweeters even if the crossover is in the amp.
Often when equipment is new, it can take a little use before the sound is what you would expect.
Also might need to reinforce the door panels with the extra power from an amp. 10mm polyethylene cutting boards can be cut to fit inside the door cavity with short screws through the door’s inner sheetmetal.
You probably need protection capacitors for the tweeters even if the crossover is in the amp.
Often when equipment is new, it can take a little use before the sound is what you would expect.