At ebay I bought a Pioneer TS-W251 (budget)
After buying it I heard this one is for free-air only, according to Pioneer
The Pioneer TS-W251C is for closed (or vented)-purposes.
I really want to use this free-air-version in a about 60 liter casing (bas-reflex/vented or even 4th order bandpass). My car is the wagon-version, and I think "free-air-subbing" really sucks......
First I tried to make a board that fits in the left-empty space in my Ford Mondeo Wagon ('97, mark2), which contains the TS-W251 (closed, not vented).
I filled the compartmented with damping-material and
clothed the metal from the car with thick carpet.
Result--> at louder volumes the whole car starts shaking and make side-noises, the base is not clean but very distorted. At lower volumes the sound is bearable, but no deep bass at all
It was a long shot, I know.........
I have 3 problems/questions:
1. Can I tune-up the method I described before or is it totally hopeless ( I guess so...., but maybe venting it ? ),
is there a way at all to tune it up ?
Since space is much needed for all the family-stuff it could be an elegant solution.
Any other suggestions ?
2. Pioneer does not have a lot of technical data and the database from WinISD lacks sufficient info (see below)
Who can help me obtaining more data ? (On the web: no luck)
3.
Who has any experience he/she wants to share ?
-->>
WinISD suggest 114 liter for vented and 58/29 for 4th order bandpass. I need a smaller case, but the sub HAS to sound GOOD, not specifically loud, but tight, clean & deep basses. I looked for the closed case first, for less "coloured" results, but I noticed too much decay (-4db at 50hz, -7db at 40hz).
The vented version advised by WinISD is way-too-big (114l) but I am not sure that a 60 or 80 liter will sound good at all.... (I my opinion with a vented system good or bad tuning is very critical and precize).
Partly because I am missing the figures to calculate
(pe and Qes), and the formula in the help file (which suggests guessing a value of "4" for "Qms" in order to calculate Qes)
About the same for the 4yh order bandpass version:
I would like to make a 22/43 or even a 16/38 liter version, but I am not sure if it will work..... (Vas = 43.6 liter)
Here are the specs I got from pioneer:
Qts = 0.54
Vas = 43,6 L
Fs = 43 hz
Z = 4 ohm
SPL = 92.5 db
dia = 25.60 cm
Pe = 120 W
Is with "Pe" RMS power ?
Anyway, according to Pioneer it is 120 watt continue and 300 watt Max....
Freq resp: 18-4000 Hz
Missings specs are:
Re =
Qms =
Qes =
Le =
Xmax =
BL =
Sd =
Who can (please) help me out here ?
After buying it I heard this one is for free-air only, according to Pioneer
The Pioneer TS-W251C is for closed (or vented)-purposes.
I really want to use this free-air-version in a about 60 liter casing (bas-reflex/vented or even 4th order bandpass). My car is the wagon-version, and I think "free-air-subbing" really sucks......
First I tried to make a board that fits in the left-empty space in my Ford Mondeo Wagon ('97, mark2), which contains the TS-W251 (closed, not vented).
I filled the compartmented with damping-material and
clothed the metal from the car with thick carpet.
Result--> at louder volumes the whole car starts shaking and make side-noises, the base is not clean but very distorted. At lower volumes the sound is bearable, but no deep bass at all
It was a long shot, I know.........
I have 3 problems/questions:
1. Can I tune-up the method I described before or is it totally hopeless ( I guess so...., but maybe venting it ? ),
is there a way at all to tune it up ?
Since space is much needed for all the family-stuff it could be an elegant solution.
Any other suggestions ?
2. Pioneer does not have a lot of technical data and the database from WinISD lacks sufficient info (see below)
Who can help me obtaining more data ? (On the web: no luck)
3.
Who has any experience he/she wants to share ?
-->>
WinISD suggest 114 liter for vented and 58/29 for 4th order bandpass. I need a smaller case, but the sub HAS to sound GOOD, not specifically loud, but tight, clean & deep basses. I looked for the closed case first, for less "coloured" results, but I noticed too much decay (-4db at 50hz, -7db at 40hz).
The vented version advised by WinISD is way-too-big (114l) but I am not sure that a 60 or 80 liter will sound good at all.... (I my opinion with a vented system good or bad tuning is very critical and precize).
Partly because I am missing the figures to calculate
(pe and Qes), and the formula in the help file (which suggests guessing a value of "4" for "Qms" in order to calculate Qes)
About the same for the 4yh order bandpass version:
I would like to make a 22/43 or even a 16/38 liter version, but I am not sure if it will work..... (Vas = 43.6 liter)
Here are the specs I got from pioneer:
Qts = 0.54
Vas = 43,6 L
Fs = 43 hz
Z = 4 ohm
SPL = 92.5 db
dia = 25.60 cm
Pe = 120 W
Is with "Pe" RMS power ?
Anyway, according to Pioneer it is 120 watt continue and 300 watt Max....
Freq resp: 18-4000 Hz
Missings specs are:
Re =
Qms =
Qes =
Le =
Xmax =
BL =
Sd =
Who can (please) help me out here ?
Pioneer TS-W51F
I have had some experience with this driver. I have measured what I can on my 2 and averaged the results here for you.
Z=4
Fs=41
Pe=250
SPL=89.8
Re=2.6
Le=0
BL=11.32
Xmax=0
Cms=0
Qms=6.57
Qes=0.34
Qts=0.33
Rms=0
Mms=0
Sd=0.031
Vas=31.5
Using WinISD and these results will give you a very small box!
What it sounds like you are experiencing is cancellation. Check to see that your baffle seals propoerly, and make sure that there are no other gaps between the cabin and the other side of the baffle. Usually they are hidden behind the carpet and trims. Something else that you can do is remove the trim from the side that you want to install the woofer, and then fill the area with wadding mount the woofer and then replace the trim.
I had one of these mounted in the same location in my wagon and it produced enough bass to eventually break the glue that holds the roof metal to the roof brace!! It took me ages to find that rattle!!
When I bough this woofer (10years ago) the dealers at the time used the free-air woofer in preference to the closed one, in a box of about 30 litres (just a bit bigger than 1 cu ft)
Hope that helps
Damo
I have had some experience with this driver. I have measured what I can on my 2 and averaged the results here for you.
Z=4
Fs=41
Pe=250
SPL=89.8
Re=2.6
Le=0
BL=11.32
Xmax=0
Cms=0
Qms=6.57
Qes=0.34
Qts=0.33
Rms=0
Mms=0
Sd=0.031
Vas=31.5
Using WinISD and these results will give you a very small box!
What it sounds like you are experiencing is cancellation. Check to see that your baffle seals propoerly, and make sure that there are no other gaps between the cabin and the other side of the baffle. Usually they are hidden behind the carpet and trims. Something else that you can do is remove the trim from the side that you want to install the woofer, and then fill the area with wadding mount the woofer and then replace the trim.
I had one of these mounted in the same location in my wagon and it produced enough bass to eventually break the glue that holds the roof metal to the roof brace!! It took me ages to find that rattle!!
When I bough this woofer (10years ago) the dealers at the time used the free-air woofer in preference to the closed one, in a box of about 30 litres (just a bit bigger than 1 cu ft)
Hope that helps
Damo
??? Pioneer TS-W51F ????
"Pioneer TS-W51F ???"
Did you forget the "2" here and do you mean Pioneer TS-W251F
I guess concerning these measurements your speaker (TS-W51F) is another than I have (TS-W251). I guess I can't just simply take your measurements to be accurate for mine ?
baffle = the front panel in which the unit is fitted in ?
If so: there are no gaps, it is sealed properly: using 8mm bolts/screws to seal it tight (thick, sturdy carpet is on the front & wrapped around...)
trim= ?
Anyway, I put carpet on the metal of the car (that is behind the woofer) and also filled the space up with a certain quantity
of damping material (specially for car-cabinets). Still the metal seems to tremble and shake "all over the place" at various volumes and various frequency's. Ugly sound and frustrating because the wasted time/efforts to make this "board".
At a swedish site I noticed figures in which it seems (swedish is not a language I understand)
that the TS-W251 is being used in a 28 liter vented or sealed box.
What I found at http://www.nardik.se/bas_lada_forslag.htm : * Maybe someone can help with the translation ? *
"Pioneer TS-W51F ???"
Did you forget the "2" here and do you mean Pioneer TS-W251F
Really thanx for your efforts.Damosan said:
I guess concerning these measurements your speaker (TS-W51F) is another than I have (TS-W251). I guess I can't just simply take your measurements to be accurate for mine ?
Sorry for my stupidity, my english concern these technical terms are not as hood as I want it to be......:
baffle = the front panel in which the unit is fitted in ?
If so: there are no gaps, it is sealed properly: using 8mm bolts/screws to seal it tight (thick, sturdy carpet is on the front & wrapped around...)
trim= ?
Anyway, I put carpet on the metal of the car (that is behind the woofer) and also filled the space up with a certain quantity
of damping material (specially for car-cabinets). Still the metal seems to tremble and shake "all over the place" at various volumes and various frequency's. Ugly sound and frustrating because the wasted time/efforts to make this "board".
It certainly does, and I gues you're right about the 30 litres-thingy:
At a swedish site I noticed figures in which it seems (swedish is not a language I understand)
that the TS-W251 is being used in a 28 liter vented or sealed box.
What I found at http://www.nardik.se/bas_lada_forslag.htm : * Maybe someone can help with the translation ? *
and an extraction from the table:
Re: ??? Pioneer TS-W51F ????
Sorry made a small mistake there:
TS-W251
Sluten Låda - 28 liter (closed case?)
Portad låda - 28 Liter (vented case ?)
Rördiameter - 6,8 cm (vent-diameter ?)
Rörlängd - 13 cm (vent-length ?)
Passar bäst i - Portad eller Sluten (?)
TS-W251C
Sluten Låda - 28 liter
Portad låda - 28 Liter
Rördiameter - 6,8 cm
Rörlängd - 19 cm
Passar bäst i - Portad eller Sluten
Sorry made a small mistake there:
Should be:
TS-W251
Sluten Låda - 28 liter (closed case?)
Portad låda - 28 Liter (vented case ?)
Rördiameter - 6,8 cm (vent-diameter ?)
Rörlängd - 13 cm (vent-length ?)
Passar bäst i - Portad eller Sluten (?)
TS-W251C
Sluten Låda - 28 liter
Portad låda - 28 Liter
Rördiameter - 6,8 cm
Rörlängd - 19 cm
Passar bäst i - Portad eller Sluten
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