Look at the 3rd harmonic (blue) it never exceeds 1% with 33 watts... That = a pair of my arrays holding 120dB (!!) at 1 meter with 0.21 mm cone travel and only 25% of their AES continuous power rating.
Take 15W750 and make it with a bass reflex: externally the box looks small and there is bass there, you can see in the graphs:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/bmf-15s-two-way-active-dsp-build.2406039/page-2
What I dont understand is the difference in T/S parameters between the Neo and the Fe version according to the Beyma website:
15P80ND: FS 39Hz MMS 88gr
15P80Fe : FS 32Hz MMS 98gr
u.a.
Würde dann eher den FE in CB einsetzen. Oder 2 Stück je Seite ala InConcertMiles 🙂)
In CB zum Tiefbass gezwungen 🙂
You have them the wrong way round.
The 15P80 Fe/N ferrite magnet driver has an 88g Mms with 22.1 Bl with a suspension of 279 um/N compliance / lower Fs of 32 Hz.
The Neo magnet version has higher Mms of 98 g with 23.8 Bl and a stiffer suspension of 168 um/N compliance / higher Fs of 39 Hz.
I have only used the ferrite version, I chose it because it is better suited than the Neo version for both sealed box and open baffle use.
I am sure the Neo version is also a great sounding driver, but it is significantly more expensive, has a poorer set of TS parameters and measures slightly worse for all my use cases.
Maybe it is better suited to ported speakers?
Also, in my previous post when I said "it was better by a mile" that was comparing it to a very different driver, the 15LX60 .... That is a dedicated low bass driver, not, a high sensitivity mid-bass driver like either of the two 15 P80 designs.
The LX60 range wins easily below 70 Hz... The P80 range wins easily above 70 Hz.
The 15P80 Fe/N ferrite magnet driver has an 88g Mms with 22.1 Bl with a suspension of 279 um/N compliance / lower Fs of 32 Hz.
The Neo magnet version has higher Mms of 98 g with 23.8 Bl and a stiffer suspension of 168 um/N compliance / higher Fs of 39 Hz.
I have only used the ferrite version, I chose it because it is better suited than the Neo version for both sealed box and open baffle use.
I am sure the Neo version is also a great sounding driver, but it is significantly more expensive, has a poorer set of TS parameters and measures slightly worse for all my use cases.
Maybe it is better suited to ported speakers?
Also, in my previous post when I said "it was better by a mile" that was comparing it to a very different driver, the 15LX60 .... That is a dedicated low bass driver, not, a high sensitivity mid-bass driver like either of the two 15 P80 designs.
The LX60 range wins easily below 70 Hz... The P80 range wins easily above 70 Hz.
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there was released in total 3 versions of each over the years, just as with the 12P80's. So TS parameters, cone wieght etc, varies even within the "same transducers".
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Two potential candidates
https://www.oberton.com/en/products/neodymium-loudspeakers/517-15nmb601.html?showall=1
https://celestion.com/product/ftr15-3070c/ is reviewed by two independent German diy services/magazines and have really low distortion and useable high in frequency.
https://www.oberton.com/en/products/neodymium-loudspeakers/517-15nmb601.html?showall=1
https://celestion.com/product/ftr15-3070c/ is reviewed by two independent German diy services/magazines and have really low distortion and useable high in frequency.
Hi.
Congratulations on choosing new speakers, optimized with 21st century CAD technology.
I'm keeping my ears happy with 15ntlw3500 totally differently than You plan to, but I can tell, that they move nicely air. I've made crude testboard half-baffle with only upper part for ptt6.5 and amt25d powered by Hypex Fusion 253.
They work like should not, moving air and not creating Room pressure difference, while playing bass mostly on-axis.
I have spotted 3 revisions of them, prior two having bit more glue at the coil-membrane connection and a just a bit slower impulse response (like nanoseconds visible on REW).
A year ago I have played them in 2-way up to 2kHz with Mundorf amt25d only, also were quite ok but the 1000-3000Hz range suffered from poor directivity control of Dipole naked AMT and 15". Mid-term solution today is to incorporate mid driver purifi ptt6.5, in my wet dreams mids run from radian lm10n (i'm on a hunt for good price, even used).
they simulate quite well in VituixCAD, You can even play with 2nd order at 100hz, followed with later 24db lowpass close to 1khz. Wonderful for my 2380a horns (i'm open to suggestion what CD to match with it)
Zero baffle is having this special very addicting bass, and for no extra money you get unknown to other loudspeakres feature - bass around the house is almost -10dB to the listening room and -20dB to what you have on axis. The only problem is when You want to have 30hz @80dB- i think it's not possible with them completely naked (or maybe i need 6 of them). I do have hypex mid channel set -9dB, which is later shelved also for 16dB starting @200hz. I think (not possible to be measured) i can achieve 40hz @80dB using almost all 250W of hypexes.
Only downside i can think of with those 18sound is linear xmax - according to sims they go above it below 40hz with 110dB (producer doesn't report Xdamage, but i haven't yet achieved with anything 110dB in my flat because i'm polite to neighbors).
In my plans soon after moving to new house next month i'd like to create new threads here. The plan is to create 3 or 4 types of solutions with them (I have 6 of these 15")
next project in line is HUUUGE box of 450 liter- new livingroom infinite baffle jawdropper camouflaged as tv wall.
after that i'll do sealed, bass reflex and always wanted to try some horn.
after exploring stnadard boxes i will keep myself busy with daisy chaining Hypexes to create DBA, w371 clones and other uncommon stuff.
now. let's try attaching images...
Congratulations on choosing new speakers, optimized with 21st century CAD technology.
I'm keeping my ears happy with 15ntlw3500 totally differently than You plan to, but I can tell, that they move nicely air. I've made crude testboard half-baffle with only upper part for ptt6.5 and amt25d powered by Hypex Fusion 253.
They work like should not, moving air and not creating Room pressure difference, while playing bass mostly on-axis.
I have spotted 3 revisions of them, prior two having bit more glue at the coil-membrane connection and a just a bit slower impulse response (like nanoseconds visible on REW).
A year ago I have played them in 2-way up to 2kHz with Mundorf amt25d only, also were quite ok but the 1000-3000Hz range suffered from poor directivity control of Dipole naked AMT and 15". Mid-term solution today is to incorporate mid driver purifi ptt6.5, in my wet dreams mids run from radian lm10n (i'm on a hunt for good price, even used).
they simulate quite well in VituixCAD, You can even play with 2nd order at 100hz, followed with later 24db lowpass close to 1khz. Wonderful for my 2380a horns (i'm open to suggestion what CD to match with it)
Zero baffle is having this special very addicting bass, and for no extra money you get unknown to other loudspeakres feature - bass around the house is almost -10dB to the listening room and -20dB to what you have on axis. The only problem is when You want to have 30hz @80dB- i think it's not possible with them completely naked (or maybe i need 6 of them). I do have hypex mid channel set -9dB, which is later shelved also for 16dB starting @200hz. I think (not possible to be measured) i can achieve 40hz @80dB using almost all 250W of hypexes.
Only downside i can think of with those 18sound is linear xmax - according to sims they go above it below 40hz with 110dB (producer doesn't report Xdamage, but i haven't yet achieved with anything 110dB in my flat because i'm polite to neighbors).
In my plans soon after moving to new house next month i'd like to create new threads here. The plan is to create 3 or 4 types of solutions with them (I have 6 of these 15")
next project in line is HUUUGE box of 450 liter- new livingroom infinite baffle jawdropper camouflaged as tv wall.
after that i'll do sealed, bass reflex and always wanted to try some horn.
after exploring stnadard boxes i will keep myself busy with daisy chaining Hypexes to create DBA, w371 clones and other uncommon stuff.
now. let's try attaching images...
Attachments
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The zero baffle produces lovely bass.
I saw this zero baffle in 2008 https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Serious Sub.pdf they use a pair 21 inch Precision Devices drivers, I couldn't afford them but bought a pair of 18 inch instead... Really great. He compares them No Baffle, H baffle, U baffle sealed and ported.... Very interesting article. I trust his advice as he is very good bass player as well as speaker designer.
That's the curiosity of our hobby. Everyone likes it a bit different.
Recently I've started using APO for loudness correction, and it changes EVERY loudspeaker for the better. Unfortunately human hearing needs huge amount of bass, like 20db more, when mid plays at whispering power.
I'm not a fan of night bass flooding house therefore i think that only boxed bass my family could withstand would be DBA.
Recently I've started using APO for loudness correction, and it changes EVERY loudspeaker for the better. Unfortunately human hearing needs huge amount of bass, like 20db more, when mid plays at whispering power.
I'm not a fan of night bass flooding house therefore i think that only boxed bass my family could withstand would be DBA.
We are talking about horn and +/- 650 Hz and no subwoofer
What about Acoustic Elegance TD18H+?
3 inch voicecoil and phaseplug gives as god off axis repsonse as many 15 inch
Extereme low inductance
Fs29 Hz
MMS 165 g but strong «motor»
From the website:
…..their ultra low inductance means they can play cleanly up into the midrange region like no other drivers. You will not find an 18″ driver that can compete with the midbass accuracy of the TD18H+.
https://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td18h/
What about Acoustic Elegance TD18H+?
3 inch voicecoil and phaseplug gives as god off axis repsonse as many 15 inch
Extereme low inductance
Fs29 Hz
MMS 165 g but strong «motor»
From the website:
…..their ultra low inductance means they can play cleanly up into the midrange region like no other drivers. You will not find an 18″ driver that can compete with the midbass accuracy of the TD18H+.
https://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td18h/
What about cone resonances of this woofer? Large cones (especially if it not have ribs) are prone to it, starting even at few hundred Hz. I would like to see a free-air impedance response for that.
I'm curious why AE don't publish free-air impedance responses (or even frequency responses).
Because then you have to adhere to those measurements at least to +/-1dB precision given the amount of money they cost per piece. This way they can get away with pretty much anything since they didn't lie to you - but they did withheld part of the truth from you.
Not everything has to be covered with a law to be existing as a rule in praxis. That would be kinda of a rigid attitude, don't you think ?
If you can buy 250 euro woofer that has that kind of consistency, and you can buy 750 euro woofer that has worse consistency - guess who will be out of business very soon ?
If you can buy 250 euro woofer that has that kind of consistency, and you can buy 750 euro woofer that has worse consistency - guess who will be out of business very soon ?
Okay, so you say AE is inconsistent? There is something they have to worry about? That's why they don't publish responses?
A maker of very expensive drivers, for example Scan-Speak still publish impedance and frequency responses.
A maker of very expensive drivers, for example Scan-Speak still publish impedance and frequency responses.
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You might want to ckeck the Precision Devices bass/midbass options, which depending where you are might be less expensive than the Beymas.
https://www.precision-devices.com/product-category/15-inch-drivers/
I prefer to have small closed subs (12”) for the last octave +/-. This lets the 15” operate with minimal exc. in a smaller box and opens the way to used really good low power amps with it.
https://www.precision-devices.com/product-category/15-inch-drivers/
I prefer to have small closed subs (12”) for the last octave +/-. This lets the 15” operate with minimal exc. in a smaller box and opens the way to used really good low power amps with it.
In Continental Europe Beyma, Faital etc are much cheaper than PD from the UK...
Re subwoofer: not even shure that I want much output in that range, for music only.
Less issues with room....
Re subwoofer: not even shure that I want much output in that range, for music only.
Less issues with room....
PD.153c002 239 Euro form Thomman
Beyma 15P80Fe is 385 EUR in DE.
https://www.thomann.de/de/precision_devices_pd.153c002.htm (version w shorting copper ring)
Beyma 15P80Fe is 385 EUR in DE.
https://www.thomann.de/de/precision_devices_pd.153c002.htm (version w shorting copper ring)
Not trying to convince you (or sure how you mean less issues), but if you mean issues with room modes, you could be better off with three 1 ft3 closed boxes. If you are ok with 50 Hz, I agree that it does not make much sense to go with separate subs, --unless perhaps you have a low power favourite tube amp for the 15".
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--unless perhaps you have a low power favourite tube amp for the 15".
Thanks for the chuckles. Almost spilled my coffee 🤣
Personally I've never heard 18" drivers sounding very tight and defined in normal rooms and prefer multiple sealed bass units (3~4) in the room to even out the bass nodes.
Thanks for the chuckles. Almost spilled my coffee 🤣
Personally I've never heard 18" drivers sounding very tight and defined in normal rooms and prefer multiple sealed bass units (3~4) in the room to even out the bass nodes.