Hi to all!
I am having doubts about a project I am starting.
I have some drivers at home that I got this past months and would like to begin a project for a mixing/mastering 3 way speaker...
So far I have...
x2 Eton 11-612/c8/50 Woofers (8ohms 120w)
x2 PHL 2011 Midwoofers (16 ohms 120w)
x4 Peerles 850134 Woofers (8ohms, 150w IEC268-5) is this W RMS?
x2 Focal TC90 TD5B Tweeters (6ohms 75w)
x2 Peerless XT25TG30-04 Tweeters (4ohms 110w)
My Original Idea is to built a 3way Speaker System with Eton, PHL and Focal in a TMW Configuration.
But recently, I had the idea of building an MTM W design with the 4 Peerless and 2 Focal tweeters. And the Eton as a subwoofer.
What would you do? PHL or Peerless as Midwoofers?
Looking for the most transparent sound.
Thank you all!
I am having doubts about a project I am starting.
I have some drivers at home that I got this past months and would like to begin a project for a mixing/mastering 3 way speaker...
So far I have...
x2 Eton 11-612/c8/50 Woofers (8ohms 120w)
x2 PHL 2011 Midwoofers (16 ohms 120w)
x4 Peerles 850134 Woofers (8ohms, 150w IEC268-5) is this W RMS?
x2 Focal TC90 TD5B Tweeters (6ohms 75w)
x2 Peerless XT25TG30-04 Tweeters (4ohms 110w)
My Original Idea is to built a 3way Speaker System with Eton, PHL and Focal in a TMW Configuration.
But recently, I had the idea of building an MTM W design with the 4 Peerless and 2 Focal tweeters. And the Eton as a subwoofer.
What would you do? PHL or Peerless as Midwoofers?
Looking for the most transparent sound.
Thank you all!
You have a bad assorted bunch of drivers (IMHO), not really suitable for building good sounding speakers. There are some problems also in some specific items, but maybe none really serious in its own, the real problem is that they don't work good together.
Apart the 11" woofer, you will have some real problems in integrating mid and tweeters together, as both your tweeters need to be crossed to fairly high (the Focal much more than the Peerless), where the directivity of your mids will be pretty evident. Another problem I see is that I don't see a FR graph for either mid, if you aren't able to measure them yourself i don't see how you could design an half decent crossover. Crossing active or passive won't change the problem.
Ralf
Apart the 11" woofer, you will have some real problems in integrating mid and tweeters together, as both your tweeters need to be crossed to fairly high (the Focal much more than the Peerless), where the directivity of your mids will be pretty evident. Another problem I see is that I don't see a FR graph for either mid, if you aren't able to measure them yourself i don't see how you could design an half decent crossover. Crossing active or passive won't change the problem.
Ralf
Are they that bad?
The peerless is used by Lipinski... The Focal I already have it on a 2way design with the PHL and sounds pretty nice. It translates really good my mixes and masters on other systems...
What would you recommend then as Midwoofers? to mach with the Focal.
Thank you!
The peerless is used by Lipinski... The Focal I already have it on a 2way design with the PHL and sounds pretty nice. It translates really good my mixes and masters on other systems...
What would you recommend then as Midwoofers? to mach with the Focal.
Thank you!
What confusion! Can't even find a PHL 2011 Midwoofer. I assume you mean a PHL 6.5" 1130-16 ohm:
Speaker PHL 1130, 16 ohm, extended 6.5 inch (E17)
Study the theory of 3 ways:
12" bass: SEAS Kit 503
8" bass: SEAS-3-Way-Classic
I find the Peerless 850134 unpromising for a two way. Seems to need a lowish 2kHz crossover. What you need here is a 4 or 5" midrange.
With the XT25 I’d choose a 5” driver, for the Focal tweeter I’d use a 4” mid, but then you’ll have problems with the integration with a 11” bass...
Can you show me a FR graph (on and off axis), of your PHL-Focal speaker?
Ralf
Can you show me a FR graph (on and off axis), of your PHL-Focal speaker?
Ralf
Would you rather use the Peerless tweeter instead of the Focal?
I never heard the XT25. Although i have listened to Lipinski´s and the sound pretty detail, and with great stereo image. (May be because of the MTM config?)
I can measure my PHL-Focal Design later tonight... It does have a bump at the crossover point. The were built by someone else a couple of years ago, and although they sound pretty good, I always though that they could be better optimized.
Thank you all for this, its really helpfull
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Seen one 8" bass plus 1" tweeter, and you pretty much seen em' all:
Simplest sort of crossover that works might be this:
How good it sounds actually depends on your choice of woofer. Yours happen to be a bit problematic. They get peaky around 3kHz.
Might be able to fix it with some impedance correction, and effort on bass filter, but really 3 way beckons here. Or live with what you have.
Simplest sort of crossover that works might be this:
How good it sounds actually depends on your choice of woofer. Yours happen to be a bit problematic. They get peaky around 3kHz.
Might be able to fix it with some impedance correction, and effort on bass filter, but really 3 way beckons here. Or live with what you have.
I understand that... That 3K peaks at the PHL migth get me some extra work at the crossover...I was thinking about making a cut around 2200 with the tweeter... 12db/oct
By that I might control a little bit more that problem... Does anybody worked with the Focal TC90td5 before? at what frequency would you cut it?
Fs is 1260Hz, measured. Pretty high actually...
Would you guys recommend a different mdiwoofer? that can cross higher with the tweeter? I just got someone that offered me ScanSpeak 13m-8636-00. 4 of them, to make an MTM configuration with the focal.
Another choice could be the ScanSpeak Discovery D7608 Dome Mid. Matches perfect with the foca in sensitivity, and gets pretty high.
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/archive/13m-8636-00.pdf
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d7608-920010.pdf
What do you guys think?
Thank youuu!🙂
By that I might control a little bit more that problem... Does anybody worked with the Focal TC90td5 before? at what frequency would you cut it?
Fs is 1260Hz, measured. Pretty high actually...
Would you guys recommend a different mdiwoofer? that can cross higher with the tweeter? I just got someone that offered me ScanSpeak 13m-8636-00. 4 of them, to make an MTM configuration with the focal.
Another choice could be the ScanSpeak Discovery D7608 Dome Mid. Matches perfect with the foca in sensitivity, and gets pretty high.
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/archive/13m-8636-00.pdf
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d7608-920010.pdf
What do you guys think?
Thank youuu!🙂
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Sure, both mids look excellent and doable. And you could wire two of them in series, which ends up a lovely speaker. Like the Wharfedale E70:
A dome mid might get complicated on crossover:
SP38/13
Those scan cones must be better as mids than as fullrange midbasses, but an MTM would work. Just won't go very loud if they don't have a lot of excursion ability.
My friend, we could go on forever, but really you need to know where you are going here.
Plenty of designs here using similar drivers:
DIY-Loudspeakers
Anything you do will end up quite similar if the drivers are similar.
Alternately you learn to simulate:
Restoring Monitor Audio R300 bookshelf speakers.
Software | Visaton
These projects are quickly put into the projekte folder for a quick start:
3 Wege – Boxsim Projektdatenbank
I do this all the time:
Restoring Monitor Audio R300 bookshelf speakers.
Say the 8" Visaton W200S-8 and 1" SC10N tweeter will behave very much like your own drivers.
A dome mid might get complicated on crossover:
SP38/13
Those scan cones must be better as mids than as fullrange midbasses, but an MTM would work. Just won't go very loud if they don't have a lot of excursion ability.
My friend, we could go on forever, but really you need to know where you are going here.
Plenty of designs here using similar drivers:
DIY-Loudspeakers
Anything you do will end up quite similar if the drivers are similar.
Alternately you learn to simulate:
Restoring Monitor Audio R300 bookshelf speakers.
Software | Visaton
These projects are quickly put into the projekte folder for a quick start:
3 Wege – Boxsim Projektdatenbank
I do this all the time:
Restoring Monitor Audio R300 bookshelf speakers.
Say the 8" Visaton W200S-8 and 1" SC10N tweeter will behave very much like your own drivers.
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Hey System7!
Thank you bro! That´s pretty useful... I have been using XSim and Unibox for my modeling. But I´ll try Vistaton Software... Looks promising!🙂
Honestly, I am looking for the most transparent solution with the drivers I have. Although I could make an effort and buy other different Mids... And maybe a tweeter... Buy, is it worth it? I already have a Focal and Peerless.
Honestly its going to be used at a Mixing/Recording Studio, so I would like to do things the best possible...
I have seen amazing models in recording studios that use really cheep but effective drivers... Don´t know if to give names here haha 😉
Just looking my way around this...
Heres a simulation I did with the Focal and PHL. Raw drivers measured at free air, no cabinet. So I guess that on cabinet the PHL could actually work better on that 3k zone.
Thank you bro! That´s pretty useful... I have been using XSim and Unibox for my modeling. But I´ll try Vistaton Software... Looks promising!🙂
Honestly, I am looking for the most transparent solution with the drivers I have. Although I could make an effort and buy other different Mids... And maybe a tweeter... Buy, is it worth it? I already have a Focal and Peerless.
Honestly its going to be used at a Mixing/Recording Studio, so I would like to do things the best possible...
I have seen amazing models in recording studios that use really cheep but effective drivers... Don´t know if to give names here haha 😉
Just looking my way around this...
Heres a simulation I did with the Focal and PHL. Raw drivers measured at free air, no cabinet. So I guess that on cabinet the PHL could actually work better on that 3k zone.
Attachments
Yeah, that's the sort of thing. Possibly better to attenuate the mid before the filter to avoid low impedance. The 16 ohm 8" PHL won't make a very good mid, as it goes. Smaller is better. Let the woofer do the bass stuff and let a smaller mid sing.
The great strength of a three way with a 4 or 5" small mid is it moves the horrible cone breakup up the band above 3kHz into near inaudibility. A small mid breaks up around 7kHz. Hence goes loud without distortion. An 8" is not the cleanest sound above 3kHz.
I was mulling over those two 8" woofers you have in a two way. We have a rising response above about 2kHz to deal with.
You might get away with a coil and a bit of impedance correction:
Maybe 10uf rather than 4.7uF which I use.
BTW, things are slightly complicated here due to your unusual 16 ohm woofer. But I hope you get the idea.
The great strength of a three way with a 4 or 5" small mid is it moves the horrible cone breakup up the band above 3kHz into near inaudibility. A small mid breaks up around 7kHz. Hence goes loud without distortion. An 8" is not the cleanest sound above 3kHz.
I was mulling over those two 8" woofers you have in a two way. We have a rising response above about 2kHz to deal with.
You might get away with a coil and a bit of impedance correction:
Maybe 10uf rather than 4.7uF which I use.
BTW, things are slightly complicated here due to your unusual 16 ohm woofer. But I hope you get the idea.
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Thanks man!
Thats really usefull. I was thinking about a zobel network on the mid too... Honestly, I think I am actually gettin into a really difficult task here haha!
Maybe I´ll reconsider some new drivers for the mid...
In your experience, what can you recommend me for using with the Focal Tweeter? Preferably with hi sensitivity, so I don´t have to attenuate the Focal. 91.5db or similar...
Cheers! this is really helpfull
Thats really usefull. I was thinking about a zobel network on the mid too... Honestly, I think I am actually gettin into a really difficult task here haha!
Maybe I´ll reconsider some new drivers for the mid...
In your experience, what can you recommend me for using with the Focal Tweeter? Preferably with hi sensitivity, so I don´t have to attenuate the Focal. 91.5db or similar...
Cheers! this is really helpfull
You need to choose mid and tweeter with higher sensitivity than the woofer. You definitively don't want to attenuate the woofer.
If you want to use a particular tweeter, you are setting a minimum frequency for the crossover point, for the Focal 3KHz, for the Peerless between 2 and 2.5KHz depending on the acoustic slope. The problem here is that no 8" should be crossed that high as it will be for sure already directive. You can obtain a flat frequency response on-axis, but if you move off-axis you obtain a great hole, so what is called power response will be uneven.
With your mid drivers, the Peerless is really a woofer and should be crossed at 1KHz or slightly more, for the PHL there isn't even a published off-axis FR graph!
So I return to what I already said:
option 1, use the Peerless tweeter and get a decent 5" mid,
option 2, use the Focal tweeter and get 2x good 4" mid to wire in parallel.
I prefer by far option 1.
Ralf
If you want to use a particular tweeter, you are setting a minimum frequency for the crossover point, for the Focal 3KHz, for the Peerless between 2 and 2.5KHz depending on the acoustic slope. The problem here is that no 8" should be crossed that high as it will be for sure already directive. You can obtain a flat frequency response on-axis, but if you move off-axis you obtain a great hole, so what is called power response will be uneven.
With your mid drivers, the Peerless is really a woofer and should be crossed at 1KHz or slightly more, for the PHL there isn't even a published off-axis FR graph!
So I return to what I already said:
option 1, use the Peerless tweeter and get a decent 5" mid,
option 2, use the Focal tweeter and get 2x good 4" mid to wire in parallel.
I prefer by far option 1.
Ralf
Believe it or not, my favourite tweeter is a £7 jobbie. The cone Monacor HT22-8. It is supremely musical albeit it is a bit narrow on dispersion.
My current listening. That's a Visaton W200S-8 8" bass with a port that is way too small theoretically, but it works for me.. I gave it a severely complicated 4th order tweeter filter, but the bass is just coil and partial impedance correction as I showed earlier. A full bass Zobel would be 39uF and 7.5R, but would roll off far too much with such a big 1.8mH bafflestep coil.
Dome tweeters, and I have plenty lying around, never do it for me, but are safely crossed at 3kHz in this sort of thing.
I think one 1" tweeter is pretty much the same as any other.
A three way is the best way to do things for sure. Midrange dispersion is far better. Distortion from breakup improves dramatically. An 8" bass, a 4" mid and a 1" tweeter is way better than a two way. But twice the effort. 12" bass might run you into problems with loudness on mid and tweeter. Hard to say.
My current listening. That's a Visaton W200S-8 8" bass with a port that is way too small theoretically, but it works for me.. I gave it a severely complicated 4th order tweeter filter, but the bass is just coil and partial impedance correction as I showed earlier. A full bass Zobel would be 39uF and 7.5R, but would roll off far too much with such a big 1.8mH bafflestep coil.
Dome tweeters, and I have plenty lying around, never do it for me, but are safely crossed at 3kHz in this sort of thing.
I think one 1" tweeter is pretty much the same as any other.
A three way is the best way to do things for sure. Midrange dispersion is far better. Distortion from breakup improves dramatically. An 8" bass, a 4" mid and a 1" tweeter is way better than a two way. But twice the effort. 12" bass might run you into problems with loudness on mid and tweeter. Hard to say.
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Hey Giralfino!
thanks for your input!
The Eton is 91dB Sens... Not planning on attenuating the woofer... I´ve done it before and sounds terrible...
I really like option 1... What about this midwoofers? Does anyone tried them before?
Peerless by Tymphany NE149W-08 5-1/4
Peerless by Tymphany NE149W-08 5-1/4" Fiber Cone Woofer Speaker 8 Ohm
As far as I know they are used by Barefoot in their MTM Studio monitor designs...
Barefoot Sound >> MicroMain27
thankk you!
x2 Eton 11-612/c8/50 Woofers (8ohms 120w)
x2 PHL 2011 Midwoofers (16 ohms 120w)
x4 Peerless 850134 Woofers (8ohms, 150w IEC268-5) is this W RMS?
x2 Focal TC90 TD5B Tweeters (6ohms 75w)
x2 Peerless XT25TG30-04 Tweeters (4ohms 110w)
For an MTM, you use regular midbasses.
For a 12" three way you use a 5" mid:
H1262-08 MCA15RCY
For an 8" three way you use a 4" mid:
H1304-08 MCA12RC
A genuine mid is a slightly different animal from a midbass. Faster really.
DIY-Loudspeakers
The World is your oyster on details, but I'd prefer to borrow at least part of a design with the mid or midbass section already sorted out. Just easier.
x2 PHL 2011 Midwoofers (16 ohms 120w)
x4 Peerless 850134 Woofers (8ohms, 150w IEC268-5) is this W RMS?
x2 Focal TC90 TD5B Tweeters (6ohms 75w)
x2 Peerless XT25TG30-04 Tweeters (4ohms 110w)
For an MTM, you use regular midbasses.
For a 12" three way you use a 5" mid:
H1262-08 MCA15RCY
For an 8" three way you use a 4" mid:
H1304-08 MCA12RC
A genuine mid is a slightly different animal from a midbass. Faster really.
DIY-Loudspeakers
The World is your oyster on details, but I'd prefer to borrow at least part of a design with the mid or midbass section already sorted out. Just easier.