Hey Stefano, thanks for writing.
I'm not too worried about the woodworking, I've got a friend who owns a custom furniture shop with a CNC machine, he'll be helping me a lot.
Totally agree and it's on my list, mind if I ask you, what did you use for Dirac? miniDSP?
Surprisingly, no. The entire room is quite reflective and has too much echo. But the speakers do not exacerbate the problem. Up to ~750 Hz they are dipoles, so have very low side reflections. They move to cardioid beyond & then to monopole by 1.5 khz. They are well balanced but the Bliesma m74b is the star. Amazing clarity, dynamics, detail to > 110 dB SPL. But bass is flat to 25 Hz in this big room, and down just -4dB at 20 Hz.
Floor standers seems the way to go.
Basically keep the woofers close to ground plane.
Then mid and tweeters sit nicely at ear level when seated.
You want high end drivers, so I dont know what magical changes people expect to be made.
Typical tower with 2x woofers and a well done crossover is what is expected.
The drivers speak for themselves. Crossover is most the game.
2x woofers offers plenty of bass and assuming typical 3 to 4 ohm dips with that arrangement.
There is no mystical magical nonsense amplifier.
It would just be something with decent power and multiple output devices.
To actually drive low impedance loads.
The carpet should just extend larger underneath the speakers.
For absorption near the source.
The room will be bright and loud due to its size.
To much reflection, if needed. Something friendly to the décor is a rear wall completely covered in drapes.
No tiny little magic panels that do nothing is needed.
You actually have to cover large areas with absorption material.
Your seated position isn't far far far away, so listening levels wont be outrages.
Depends on purpose and listening habits.
Stereo is for music lovers. For movies assume the typical surround and center channels.
No snob magic amps needed for movies, just high power multi channel amplifier.
Since all the needed digital connections will already be there for actual proper integration.
With real multi channel.
I only watch ancient movies and listen to music mainly in good old stereo.
Basically keep the woofers close to ground plane.
Then mid and tweeters sit nicely at ear level when seated.
You want high end drivers, so I dont know what magical changes people expect to be made.
Typical tower with 2x woofers and a well done crossover is what is expected.
The drivers speak for themselves. Crossover is most the game.
2x woofers offers plenty of bass and assuming typical 3 to 4 ohm dips with that arrangement.
There is no mystical magical nonsense amplifier.
It would just be something with decent power and multiple output devices.
To actually drive low impedance loads.
The carpet should just extend larger underneath the speakers.
For absorption near the source.
The room will be bright and loud due to its size.
To much reflection, if needed. Something friendly to the décor is a rear wall completely covered in drapes.
No tiny little magic panels that do nothing is needed.
You actually have to cover large areas with absorption material.
Your seated position isn't far far far away, so listening levels wont be outrages.
Depends on purpose and listening habits.
Stereo is for music lovers. For movies assume the typical surround and center channels.
No snob magic amps needed for movies, just high power multi channel amplifier.
Since all the needed digital connections will already be there for actual proper integration.
With real multi channel.
I only watch ancient movies and listen to music mainly in good old stereo.
Adding a few considerations here. Since you’re placing your speakers fairly close to the to the front wall, don’t go for dipoles. These need to be pulled out. Furthermore, 45cm is way more than enough for rear ports (maybe I should bring some proof here…). Rather think of speakers with a bit higher DI, to reduce the first front wall reflection which might get into the 7ms+about-ish time window which our ears need to discern sound sources. Cardioid designs come to mind.
Your room acoustics certainly deserve attention given your budget. Treating the room also improves acoustic comfort otherwise. Speech intelligibility gets better, living (kitchen) noises get easier to bear.
You are betting on a classic setup, but consider multi-sub arrangements, even if you would for just 5 seconds. Certainly if you care for a high end bass reproduction.
Your room acoustics certainly deserve attention given your budget. Treating the room also improves acoustic comfort otherwise. Speech intelligibility gets better, living (kitchen) noises get easier to bear.
You are betting on a classic setup, but consider multi-sub arrangements, even if you would for just 5 seconds. Certainly if you care for a high end bass reproduction.
I second controlled directivity designs. Some are diy-able, eg coax-based and MEHs, but cardioids less so. Maybe a smart choice would be the Dutch & Dutch 8c which only need a roon server to complete the setup and this fits well into your budget. The active monitors from ME Geithein are an alternative.
The Kii 3 with sub also would fit the bill. No ‘premium drivers’ though and a classic example of what good engineering can do.
@TS, did you look at the Statements and Anthologies of this world? I think an MTM arrangement possibly could work well. The Heißmann designs already got referred to. Or the various AmTon versions if you‘re easy to stretch your budget, Dennis Frank and Daniel Gattig sure did also design some other wayout designs 😆
@TS, did you look at the Statements and Anthologies of this world? I think an MTM arrangement possibly could work well. The Heißmann designs already got referred to. Or the various AmTon versions if you‘re easy to stretch your budget, Dennis Frank and Daniel Gattig sure did also design some other wayout designs 😆
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Large rooms are not plagued by early reflections, they have late reflections.
Standing in the kitchen the room sound will be notable.
Seated close to the source not as noticeable.
The main concern is floor reflection = rug
Any late reflection is rear wall, is biggest concern.
They dont go away unless significant other likes full carpet or drape walls.
Drape on one wall with fancy lighting might be solution.
Direct Radiating speakers or a MEH or horn should still do 40 to 60 degree dispersion.
None of these things actually fix early or late reflections, full absorption does.
Rather small or large room. Full absorption. No dinky little magic panels that do = nothing
Multi sub nonsense goes out the window, large rooms dont resonate at high 75 to 150 Hz bloom/ dead zones like small rooms
The resonate closer to 20 to 40 Hz.
They are typically to large to give a darn.
Whatever wall the speakers are pointed at in a large room, is the first to address.
That is the" slap back" late reflection wall hit with most energy, off axis less concern.
Floor ceiling biggest wall, no carpet or drapes, no solution.
Big rooms sound like Big Rooms when your far from the source near a wall / boundary.
Seated close to source away from boundary, not as noticeable.
Same with bass no bloom near source no boundary. Far from source near boundary.
Wherever it bloom it blooms. No fix, multi sub, no fix cardioid, no fix.
Cardiod fixes bass delay for stage performers, not homes.
Standing in the kitchen the room sound will be notable.
Seated close to the source not as noticeable.
The main concern is floor reflection = rug
Any late reflection is rear wall, is biggest concern.
They dont go away unless significant other likes full carpet or drape walls.
Drape on one wall with fancy lighting might be solution.
Direct Radiating speakers or a MEH or horn should still do 40 to 60 degree dispersion.
None of these things actually fix early or late reflections, full absorption does.
Rather small or large room. Full absorption. No dinky little magic panels that do = nothing
Multi sub nonsense goes out the window, large rooms dont resonate at high 75 to 150 Hz bloom/ dead zones like small rooms
The resonate closer to 20 to 40 Hz.
They are typically to large to give a darn.
Whatever wall the speakers are pointed at in a large room, is the first to address.
That is the" slap back" late reflection wall hit with most energy, off axis less concern.
Floor ceiling biggest wall, no carpet or drapes, no solution.
Big rooms sound like Big Rooms when your far from the source near a wall / boundary.
Seated close to source away from boundary, not as noticeable.
Same with bass no bloom near source no boundary. Far from source near boundary.
Wherever it bloom it blooms. No fix, multi sub, no fix cardioid, no fix.
Cardiod fixes bass delay for stage performers, not homes.
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Greetings from Germany @Awni !
I am still testing with the MinDSP Flex8 DL
Purchased with a direct order from Hong Kong, works fairly well even with the custom duties
Details to the setup i used the device for here:
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dirac-reviews.50223/post-1969406
If you want some other point of view for the setup in your new house without the glasses totally focused on DIY may be you can post your question also there
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php
hope it helps, Stefano
P.S.:
you should think about considering the need to switch to a complete home cinema setup some day
this opportunity may only arise before moving into the new house
for this there are some on wall speakers available and some in wall drive units too, but this is a totally different approach and would be off topic in this post
nice pics with in wall drive units here https://international.kef.com/collections/in-wall
I am still testing with the MinDSP Flex8 DL
Purchased with a direct order from Hong Kong, works fairly well even with the custom duties
Details to the setup i used the device for here:
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dirac-reviews.50223/post-1969406
If you want some other point of view for the setup in your new house without the glasses totally focused on DIY may be you can post your question also there
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php
hope it helps, Stefano
P.S.:
you should think about considering the need to switch to a complete home cinema setup some day
this opportunity may only arise before moving into the new house
for this there are some on wall speakers available and some in wall drive units too, but this is a totally different approach and would be off topic in this post
nice pics with in wall drive units here https://international.kef.com/collections/in-wall
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I scanned this thread briefly and would recommend an active system. There are many designs out there but for complete flexibility using dsp to shape the sound to your liking is invaluable. Room treatments should also be part of whatever you decide. Those treatments alone may represent a sizable part of your budget.
IMHO of course
Best
IMHO of course
Best
@WhiteDragon Thank you so much.
And for the wall behind the couch (facing the speakers), I'm doing a wooden wall similar to the photo attached, I believe this will also help with the acoustics, what do you think?
So I'm getting a big carpet for sure, I'm also doing a natural wooden floors they should be arriving next week but I don't want to have a very big carpet that'll just hide all the beauty of the wooden floor.
And for the wall behind the couch (facing the speakers), I'm doing a wooden wall similar to the photo attached, I believe this will also help with the acoustics, what do you think?
Attachments
Absolutely. I’m just waiting for everything to be finalized, then I’ll look into acoustic treatments that won’t compromise the aesthetics of the living room and can still enhance the overall design.
Floor will be wooden, do you think it will help a little? I have no experience with acoustics :/ but my plan is bigger rug, wooden floors and drapes on the glass for now.
What do you think of my wooden wall idea? would it help?
Very valuable information, thanks a lot mate.
I’m planning to turn one of the upstairs rooms into a home theater next year, complete with a full surround sound system and proper acoustic treatment for the ultimate setup.
Just having the wall made of wood would not help, but shelves on that wall that are randomly filled with a variety of things, books of different sizes & depths, etc will help diffuse the reflections rather than reflect them geometrically, which adds to standings waves & resonances.
The speakers I designed & built for that big room use miniDSP Flex 8 for active XO & DSP. I cannot recommend active strongly enough. The room has such a dramatic profound effect on speaker performance, and without active DSP, you're stuck. With it, most room/loudspeaker interactions can be tamed or at least made benign.
The equalizations made to voice the speakers well in my studio (22x19' with ceiling sloping 6.5' to 9', well damped) did not work in the final setup in that big room (52x30' with 20' peaked ceilings). They sounded boomy, dull, imbalanced initially.
I completely re-measured every driver in situ, adjusting EQ for each, measuring/adisting the different combinations & all the drivers together to revise the speakers for the room. That took one afternoon. They sound beautiful now, and the reverb, which was a major concern, enhances the overall sound, much like the acoustics in a wooden interior chapel.
This is not to say you shouldn't optimize the positioning of the speakers or the acoustics of the room. They determine just how much of the speakers' performance potential is realized, even with PEQ, Dirac or other electronic/digital manipulations.
The equalizations made to voice the speakers well in my studio (22x19' with ceiling sloping 6.5' to 9', well damped) did not work in the final setup in that big room (52x30' with 20' peaked ceilings). They sounded boomy, dull, imbalanced initially.
I completely re-measured every driver in situ, adjusting EQ for each, measuring/adisting the different combinations & all the drivers together to revise the speakers for the room. That took one afternoon. They sound beautiful now, and the reverb, which was a major concern, enhances the overall sound, much like the acoustics in a wooden interior chapel.
This is not to say you shouldn't optimize the positioning of the speakers or the acoustics of the room. They determine just how much of the speakers' performance potential is realized, even with PEQ, Dirac or other electronic/digital manipulations.
Lots of good info here so far.
I will recommend high efficiency speakers combined with dsp crossovers and eq. The thing here is that eq can require significant amplifier headroom so plan for that.
With your budget, room and objectives I would go for diy JBL M2 speakers fed by a balanced minidsp flex with Dirac and this Purifi based four channel amp.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifiers/audiophonics-hpa-q450et-p-20248.html
The M2 is a very well documented design and diy versions have been done.
I will recommend high efficiency speakers combined with dsp crossovers and eq. The thing here is that eq can require significant amplifier headroom so plan for that.
With your budget, room and objectives I would go for diy JBL M2 speakers fed by a balanced minidsp flex with Dirac and this Purifi based four channel amp.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifiers/audiophonics-hpa-q450et-p-20248.html
The M2 is a very well documented design and diy versions have been done.
I came here to recommend going active, DSP, and room correction but I see that others have already helpfully mentioned that 😀
I would have added a current amplifier (maybe something by Nelson Pass?), maybe bi amping too - especially if you can run it active. But Class A amps anyway can have decent current biasing, so you might not need to bother too much with that.
Two points I'd like to emphasize on:
1. Treat your room as much as possible. If it's still getting built, you can add diffusers/bass traps/sound absorbing panels etc before furniture comes in. Something on the ceiling that is not flat can help avoid standing waves. Though a lot of this depends on whether you're living alone or with someone else who might not be fond of such work, aesthetically speaking 😀
2. If you can, try to test drivers in some form. A coaxial vs a horn vs a planar vs a high efficiency PA (mid)woofer can sound quite different, to say nothing of if you choose to try open baffle or (active/passive) cardioid. What one might consider "detailed" on one day might sound "fatiguing" on another. I'm mentioning this also because I notice you mentioned wanting to use nice drivers (who doesn't?) but I would like to caution you - a "cheap" driver in a well implemented and engineered speaker and treated room will sound much better than a driver 10 times more expensive but not well implemented. Linkwitz's open baffle speakers will sound and "mate" in your room very differently from a JBL horn.
Yes, this step will take a lot of time and effort. But I'd say if you spend even a few hundred dollars (equivalent) on trialing, you can potentially save probably a lot more on buying something you later realize you don't like. You could get a calibrated mic while you're at it too - I think most folks would recommend it.
I would have added a current amplifier (maybe something by Nelson Pass?), maybe bi amping too - especially if you can run it active. But Class A amps anyway can have decent current biasing, so you might not need to bother too much with that.
Two points I'd like to emphasize on:
1. Treat your room as much as possible. If it's still getting built, you can add diffusers/bass traps/sound absorbing panels etc before furniture comes in. Something on the ceiling that is not flat can help avoid standing waves. Though a lot of this depends on whether you're living alone or with someone else who might not be fond of such work, aesthetically speaking 😀
2. If you can, try to test drivers in some form. A coaxial vs a horn vs a planar vs a high efficiency PA (mid)woofer can sound quite different, to say nothing of if you choose to try open baffle or (active/passive) cardioid. What one might consider "detailed" on one day might sound "fatiguing" on another. I'm mentioning this also because I notice you mentioned wanting to use nice drivers (who doesn't?) but I would like to caution you - a "cheap" driver in a well implemented and engineered speaker and treated room will sound much better than a driver 10 times more expensive but not well implemented. Linkwitz's open baffle speakers will sound and "mate" in your room very differently from a JBL horn.
Yes, this step will take a lot of time and effort. But I'd say if you spend even a few hundred dollars (equivalent) on trialing, you can potentially save probably a lot more on buying something you later realize you don't like. You could get a calibrated mic while you're at it too - I think most folks would recommend it.