Today, the younger inexperienced crowd is brainwashed into thinking big amps are the one's to use, particularly with those common generic 6 inch two-way speakers, both tabletop and tower.
Of course, it's silly to use big power with home systems, but it stemmed from the "wattage wars" of the late 70's/80's.
There is a reasonable plateau to be drawn, taking into consideration the neighbors, the listening area, music style/level, etc.
When the average speaker at home only requires a "few watts" for normal listening, and perhaps cresendos reach maybe 50w, who needs a "super powered" amp?
Maybe the deaf?
Agreed, wiseoldtech.
There are people who seem to think they need 100+ dB, but an informed person that cares about the longevity of their hearing will hardly need more than a few Watts, even on mid-80dB sensitivity speaker systems.
The resurgence of silly power levels seems to point blame to home theatre, with bluray and UHD remasters having ear-splitting dynamic range. The way they are mastering that stuff isn’t even safe.
There are people who seem to think they need 100+ dB, but an informed person that cares about the longevity of their hearing will hardly need more than a few Watts, even on mid-80dB sensitivity speaker systems.
The resurgence of silly power levels seems to point blame to home theatre, with bluray and UHD remasters having ear-splitting dynamic range. The way they are mastering that stuff isn’t even safe.
Here we had 20 W/Ch systems claiming 400 W PMPO, from reputed makers like Philips, and 2200 W PMPO from Akai.
And the decision to buy was made on the highest output for the same price.
Our rooms tend to be smaller than American rooms, and are mostly brick plastered with cement, with little lining, so acoustically reflective, 10 watts total is the edge of discomfort.
Even a 40/W channel unit is too much.
The power of advertising, and association...
We have seen that in fashion, particularly in eyebrow styles and the hippie movement, when dresses became quite different.
Now I see that in hair styles and beards...
I stick to what I find comfortable, and ignore the rest of the world.
And the decision to buy was made on the highest output for the same price.
Our rooms tend to be smaller than American rooms, and are mostly brick plastered with cement, with little lining, so acoustically reflective, 10 watts total is the edge of discomfort.
Even a 40/W channel unit is too much.
The power of advertising, and association...
We have seen that in fashion, particularly in eyebrow styles and the hippie movement, when dresses became quite different.
Now I see that in hair styles and beards...
I stick to what I find comfortable, and ignore the rest of the world.
At the shop, I once did a customer's complete restoration of a 1960-ish Magnavox "Concert Grande" stereo console.
The cabinet was a heavy beast, but impressive.
Dual mono tube amps, each with EIGHT 6V6 tubes, two being used in PP for the tweeter horns, the remaining six in a PPP arangement driving 15" woofers.
As you can imagine, this "bi-amped" system was quite potent.
Plus, a seperate chassis was used for a crude remote control system.
And only affordable for The Rich Affluent Society.
Yes, it played loud, but my ears found it too forward and overwhelming.
The cabinet was a heavy beast, but impressive.
Dual mono tube amps, each with EIGHT 6V6 tubes, two being used in PP for the tweeter horns, the remaining six in a PPP arangement driving 15" woofers.
As you can imagine, this "bi-amped" system was quite potent.
Plus, a seperate chassis was used for a crude remote control system.
And only affordable for The Rich Affluent Society.
Yes, it played loud, but my ears found it too forward and overwhelming.
15”/1” horn speaker systems USUALLY sound too forward and overwhelming. The horn is always more sensitive than the woofer and the woofer has a rising response on axis. It’s sort of a trick to get more midrange off axis where the midrange is dipping - badly. But on axis it will rip your head off. Too many cheap PA speakers are made this way.
Indeed, those infamous Magnavox "1000 cycle horns" were squawky things, but it was 1960 technology.
Back then, loud, imposing and in your face music was touted as "rich concert hall sound" and IMO not real high fidelity.
I have 4 boxes with 1 RCF L12p530 and a 1" driver in each in my 75 m2 workshop. Crossovers are HIFI-modified, and I've used Altec 9440, Phonic PWA2400, Alto 2400 and Threshold 4000 to drive them.
Those old irons plays best, even when they have to override grinders, tablesaw and mills.
And there's no problem if neighbours one block away want's to listen...
/Figge
Those old irons plays best, even when they have to override grinders, tablesaw and mills.
And there's no problem if neighbours one block away want's to listen...
/Figge
That would seem to suggest that high fidelity is not your primary concern with your music system.
But aren’t those 12’s? Easier to get hi-fi out of. With 15’s they usually don’t even *try*, but it is possible. And if you do modify a 15/1 for fidelity you have to run the crossover frequency down low enough where it’s not safe for it to be ‘blasted’ anymore. A 12 can be make high enough fidelity for many purposes with a 1.5 kHz crossover - a decent compromise. The same is not so good with a 15”. And it would require a real crossover, not just sticking a high pass on the horn.
And those old Magnavox ran the crossover MUCH higher - at least 2.5k (par for the course for most cheap 15/1). The horn diaphragm was tiny (3/4”), with a 4x10 metal horn flare. I *had* a set of the drivers that were cannibalized out of one of those consoles. Never could make them sound as good as the old CTS 10” out of a different console, that I retained the amp section out of. Both sets of drivers were best in a basic OB arrangement which makes sense. Largest amp i had at the time was 15 watts per channel and it was enough to bring the cops.
@ wg_ski
Yes, those are 12" and as you say they work ok with a 1" driver. Original crossover just needed small changes to give a nice response.
I would not try a 15" in that configuration.
Figge
Yes, those are 12" and as you say they work ok with a 1" driver. Original crossover just needed small changes to give a nice response.
I would not try a 15" in that configuration.
Figge
I find it amusing in the extreme that the peak output figures so beloved of crappy '70s hifi manufacturers - and so hated by the 'real' PA crowd - have made such a huge resurgence in light of the increasing numbers of digital amps now available. 20kW in two units of rack space. Yes, of course they are.
PMPO (Peak Music Power Output) lives on...
(Long-term outputs of these multi-kW amps typically fall to a few hundred Watts per channel).
Those modern KW amps *can* actually put out those kilowatts for 20 to 50 milliseconds repetitively. Long term may be a few hundred to maybe 1 kW, but the same can be said for heavy iron amps like the CA18. Those can hold 5kW for a minute or so, but the long term about the same as the 2U digital amps. The kW PMPO amps from the 70’s couldn’t put out enough voltage to deliver that kind off power even for a nanosecond.
I'll never understand why the ability to reproduce at full concert levels is a necessity to be High in Fidelity. There's nothing less about having great sound at less then the full concert level.
A special place in HiFi h*** would be where you had to listen to any recording true to the level it was originally recorded at - or not at all. This would be impractical.
I liken it to having a car with, say a 600 BHP engine. 99.9% of the time, you're driving along at ordinary road posted speeds, along with the Toyotas and Hyundais. You can turn a 12, but when, without risking bodily injury?
I'm pretty happy with < 50WPC at the SPLs I find enjoyable, vs irritating.
A special place in HiFi h*** would be where you had to listen to any recording true to the level it was originally recorded at - or not at all. This would be impractical.
I liken it to having a car with, say a 600 BHP engine. 99.9% of the time, you're driving along at ordinary road posted speeds, along with the Toyotas and Hyundais. You can turn a 12, but when, without risking bodily injury?
I'm pretty happy with < 50WPC at the SPLs I find enjoyable, vs irritating.
Well a symphony orchestra may go from ppp to fff which is a considerable dynamic range. Most sane individuals run 70-75dB average at the listening spot which on well recorded music is around the -20dBFS level to allow for crest factor and peaks. How pianissimo can an orchestra go before you can't hear it in your living room? And how much gain riding is acceptable. I personally hate hearing big crescendos being throttled.
If your preferred music just bounces off the pegs on the VU all the way through then dynamic range is of little use. Yet people still pay more for high res recordings when they only can use 50dB of dynamic range...
Your beliefs are sensible, reasonable, and relate to most humans on the planet.
People (normally) want to hear their music within their homes with the best quality that they can, but of course these same people have individual requirements or expectations, as well as budgets.
The one common thing is loudness levels within the home.
It's not a concert hall, it's not a huge clamshell type stage outdoors.
And people don't intend to irritate the nearby neighbors....normally.
So yes, a 35w/ch amp is suitable most times, and even that isn't fully pushed to its limits.
To hear people discussing the need to have enormous "headroom" is debatable, they don't fall into the majority of people.
Mind you, I'm focusing on music reproduction, not movie theater systems.
No replacement for displacement! 😀
Sure is nice to be able to flap your pant legs if ya want to. 😎
Sure is nice to be able to flap your pant legs if ya want to. 😎