""Edit, to mention, I have both PP and single ended in both SS and tube amps. There's probably more difference between PP and SE, than there is between tube and SS.
""
This is closer to the root issue , i have tested by experiment.
ie Se Germanium doorknob power amp, no gfb probably 1% or more dist but it just sounded so good. Drive minimus 7s with it.
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This is closer to the root issue , i have tested by experiment.
ie Se Germanium doorknob power amp, no gfb probably 1% or more dist but it just sounded so good. Drive minimus 7s with it.
Whenever I listen to music using my McInstosh MC275 I always think "Wow, this is like really good solid-state!".
Tube design was optimim in the golden 70's. SS design is still evolving. Ultimately SS will win, whether it is better today than yesteryears bottle designs will always be a moot point. I've yet to hear a tube amp that I like.
My two main amps that I listen to these days are an EL34 P-P tube amp and a 2x100 Class D based on TC2000 and STA508.
Both of them run circles around my Yamaha SS integrated, but they do sound very, very different from one another.
I find I notice the difference the most after I spend weeks listening to one amp and then abruptly switch to the other. Just last night I did this; after weeks of listening to the D, I switched over to the tubes and the difference was very obvious. I listened for a while with my daughter (very good ears) and we discussed the differences. My daughter said "it's not as clear, but it is less hollow". I responded by saying that I felt the tubes had more "body" or "weight" and she immediately agreed. I switched back to the D amp and we listened more (to the same songs, by Eva Cassidy). After a while she looked at me and said "both of them sound great - it isn't like one is better than the other - it's just a matter of personal preference."
I couldn't agree more, and I couldn't help bu think about this forum when she said it.
She's 11, by the way.
Note: Everything from ~200Hz down goes to a plate amp driving a pair of vintage 12" cones, so this comparison had nothing to do with bass response.
Both of them run circles around my Yamaha SS integrated, but they do sound very, very different from one another.
I find I notice the difference the most after I spend weeks listening to one amp and then abruptly switch to the other. Just last night I did this; after weeks of listening to the D, I switched over to the tubes and the difference was very obvious. I listened for a while with my daughter (very good ears) and we discussed the differences. My daughter said "it's not as clear, but it is less hollow". I responded by saying that I felt the tubes had more "body" or "weight" and she immediately agreed. I switched back to the D amp and we listened more (to the same songs, by Eva Cassidy). After a while she looked at me and said "both of them sound great - it isn't like one is better than the other - it's just a matter of personal preference."
I couldn't agree more, and I couldn't help bu think about this forum when she said it.
She's 11, by the way.
Note: Everything from ~200Hz down goes to a plate amp driving a pair of vintage 12" cones, so this comparison had nothing to do with bass response.
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Another interesting thing happened recently with the tube amp. Like anything else, I cannot resist tweaking it, and I have replaced several components such as coupling caps, grid return caps, a few resistors, etc. The other day I realized that I had not yet optimized the input capacitors on this unit, so I removed what was there and replaced them with WIMA MKP.
Well, at the risk of sounding completely cliche... the difference was night and day.
I now know what "smear" means. 😱 My wife looked at me and said "that sounds like crap." Indeed, dear, it does.
The WIMAs came out of there right quick and the originals (which look like Sprague orange drops, but I cannot confirm it) were put back in place. Much, much better. My dinner got cold, as I could not tolerate sitting through dinner with those WIMAs in place. I am not OCD - It was really that bad. (probably fake WIMAs - ebay)
My point? If you don't like a tube amp, it could be just 2 capacitors away from sounding much, much better (or worse).
Well, at the risk of sounding completely cliche... the difference was night and day.
I now know what "smear" means. 😱 My wife looked at me and said "that sounds like crap." Indeed, dear, it does.
The WIMAs came out of there right quick and the originals (which look like Sprague orange drops, but I cannot confirm it) were put back in place. Much, much better. My dinner got cold, as I could not tolerate sitting through dinner with those WIMAs in place. I am not OCD - It was really that bad. (probably fake WIMAs - ebay)
My point? If you don't like a tube amp, it could be just 2 capacitors away from sounding much, much better (or worse).
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If your Mac 275 sounds like that, don't hesitate for one minute before getting it repaired!
😀
That's a philosophy or way of thinking that applies to every area of audio - one tiny, little thing could be precisely what's kneecapping the sound; and fiddling in every area, except where the real problem lies will never resolve the issue.
It's not about constantly adding bits of "goodness" in various places to "make the sound better"; it's about finding the issue that is most degrading the sound, and resolving that ...
Many, if not all, of the posts debating SS is superior to tube or the opposite are probably an unknown mix with many issues from speakers, or the interaction between amp and speaker, instead of the issues purely in amp itself.
The best possible performance is certainly an optimized condition, in which the load, power, distribution of distortion fit well between amp and speaker.
And, since many characters of SS and tube amps are different, so their optimized conditions are different, too. So there won't be apple to apple comparison because there's no such speaker which acts like a resistor.
So, let's drop this meaningless debate.
The best possible performance is certainly an optimized condition, in which the load, power, distribution of distortion fit well between amp and speaker.
And, since many characters of SS and tube amps are different, so their optimized conditions are different, too. So there won't be apple to apple comparison because there's no such speaker which acts like a resistor.
So, let's drop this meaningless debate.
I wouldn't say knowledge, or a technical education, are as important as an interest in experimenting, and an intuition as to what may be an issue - building up experience trying simple things is an excellent approach. I have never delved into the deep, electronic subtleties, in the areas some of the highly accomplished members here at times have conversations over - I have not found those sorts of things getting in the way of the type of quality sound I'm after.
I would recommend getting some throwaway bit of gear, that one is not scared of permanently wrecking, and do all sorts of the crazy things that people mention, just to see what the various effects are - does it make an audible difference(?), try and learn to listen for the impacts on sound quality that doing various things has ...
I would recommend getting some throwaway bit of gear, that one is not scared of permanently wrecking, and do all sorts of the crazy things that people mention, just to see what the various effects are - does it make an audible difference(?), try and learn to listen for the impacts on sound quality that doing various things has ...
Lol ,good laugh ..... 🙂
Was that with a CD or MP3 , any DBX comparision ..... ?
You've got that covered Jeff, but what about those of us that are trained as Historians?
😱
Best Regards,
TerryO
History is pointless, it merely provides sound bites to those who like point out when our past mistakes are being repeated.
Tubes don't really float my boat, they can be very nice but I miss that solid fast punch solid state amps can give when I listen to rock music. It's about the only thing I can really put my finger on as a disadvantage sonically. The heat from a bunch of KT88's can get a bit too much for me in summer and when I factor in the cost of replacements and electricity these days, class AB solid state makes more sense to me.
Tubes don't really float my boat, they can be very nice but I miss that solid fast punch solid state amps can give when I listen to rock music. It's about the only thing I can really put my finger on as a disadvantage sonically. The heat from a bunch of KT88's can get a bit too much for me in summer and when I factor in the cost of replacements and electricity these days, class AB solid state makes more sense to me.
I'd venture not the solid state ... we have a small Class A EL84 PP (3.2w) that has tremendous bass (within power limitations)
dave
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