Hi Jaka,
Wow, thank you.
If it is a thousand watt amp, then it should obviously be expected to sustain 1000W continuously.
Everytime the thousand watt capability of these modules is referenced, everyplace I've seen, it _does_ say "continuous" beside it, but they always leave out the "for 15 seconds, after it's taken out of the freezer" aspect.
These figures seem shockingly low to me, and I was expecting something like this.
40W continuous at 50 deg. C ( a reasonable in-case temp) is a far cry from 1000W, not even close, I wonder what their 200W amp is? Can you show us that same part of the data sheet for that one as well?
It does say it can be increased with heatsinking or forced air, but I think the only way to actually get close to 1000W out of it for any length of time would be liquid nitrogen.
Who wants to use fans and big honking heat sinks just to get a reliable ~100W of power anyway, may as well go with class B right, hell, may as well go with a real supply. One has to note the figure of it's max capability with all the additional cooling isn't given either.
Such embellishment forces me to ask how far they stretched the truth on all their other specs as well.
For instance, what's with the FTC rating?? Bandwidth limited to 3Khz, by protection that..... isn't normally in the amp? So they squeeze a little more power out? Isn't FTC test supposed to be "across the rated bandwidth (so it should be up to 20Khz that's what they said it is), at the specified ratings". I guess they only specificed all the ratings up to 3Khz? Something stinks.
Now, be serious, do you really want your UCD modules rated this way? The cost of a real SMPS that can "do" the job would be insane.
Regards
Wow, thank you.
If it is a thousand watt amp, then it should obviously be expected to sustain 1000W continuously.
Everytime the thousand watt capability of these modules is referenced, everyplace I've seen, it _does_ say "continuous" beside it, but they always leave out the "for 15 seconds, after it's taken out of the freezer" aspect.
These figures seem shockingly low to me, and I was expecting something like this.
40W continuous at 50 deg. C ( a reasonable in-case temp) is a far cry from 1000W, not even close, I wonder what their 200W amp is? Can you show us that same part of the data sheet for that one as well?
It does say it can be increased with heatsinking or forced air, but I think the only way to actually get close to 1000W out of it for any length of time would be liquid nitrogen.
Who wants to use fans and big honking heat sinks just to get a reliable ~100W of power anyway, may as well go with class B right, hell, may as well go with a real supply. One has to note the figure of it's max capability with all the additional cooling isn't given either.
Such embellishment forces me to ask how far they stretched the truth on all their other specs as well.
For instance, what's with the FTC rating?? Bandwidth limited to 3Khz, by protection that..... isn't normally in the amp? So they squeeze a little more power out? Isn't FTC test supposed to be "across the rated bandwidth (so it should be up to 20Khz that's what they said it is), at the specified ratings". I guess they only specificed all the ratings up to 3Khz? Something stinks.
Now, be serious, do you really want your UCD modules rated this way? The cost of a real SMPS that can "do" the job would be insane.
Regards
Hi Chris,
datasheets are on their web page. Here is 1000ASP, here is 200ASC and here is 250ASP .
It is interesting that 250W module has almost the same continious ratings as 1000W one.
But the most shocking digram is from the 200ASC datasheet. It shows how do they dimension Zobel network. That is also the reason why 1000ASP has FTC rating only up to 3kHz. See attached picture.
Best regards,
Jaka Racman
datasheets are on their web page. Here is 1000ASP, here is 200ASC and here is 250ASP .
It is interesting that 250W module has almost the same continious ratings as 1000W one.
But the most shocking digram is from the 200ASC datasheet. It shows how do they dimension Zobel network. That is also the reason why 1000ASP has FTC rating only up to 3kHz. See attached picture.
Best regards,
Jaka Racman
Attachments
Hi,
...and it all comes crashing down. Thanks for those links Jaka, I hadn't seen those before. I'm really taken aback by those.
I'm surprised they haven't yet evolved beyond the obvious problems they have, too busy marketing it perhaps.
At great restraint that's all I'm going to say about it, but it looks as though if anyone truly wants an amp capable of 1000W RMS it's a ZAPpulse for you, for now.
Best regards,
Chris
...and it all comes crashing down. Thanks for those links Jaka, I hadn't seen those before. I'm really taken aback by those.
I'm surprised they haven't yet evolved beyond the obvious problems they have, too busy marketing it perhaps.
At great restraint that's all I'm going to say about it, but it looks as though if anyone truly wants an amp capable of 1000W RMS it's a ZAPpulse for you, for now.
Best regards,
Chris
If I read all this, it seems that people are not so enthusiastic about switched power supplies.
Why is that? The reason why I consider them is as follows:
1. better power factor, a linear supply will draw high peak current, especially when big caps in the power supply are used. I live in a 100V country, so those big current peaks can be an issue and limiting for the performance
2. regulated output voltage, so even if my 100V that I get from the outlet is not that stable or hard, I will still have a pretty stable supply voltage for the power amps
3. I have to feed many amps since I use them in an active system, this means many power supply caps that need to be charged, and therefore, high current peaks as mentioned in 1 as well, when a linear supply is used
Actually, I`m also considering to make a regulated supply (conventional) using the THEL regulator modules. However, those modules may not be so easy to get since I`m located in Japan, can`t order with credit card and so on. What I would do with those modules is to have relatively small caps in front of the regulator and a 20V higher input voltage than needed at the output. The voltage before the regulator will have quite a lot of ripple because the caps would be relatively small, however, that ripple will be regulated away. So after the regulator, I can have bigger caps and a nice stable voltage that is almost load and AC outlet independent. That way, I can again reduce the peak currents that are drawn from my wall outlet.
Any comments on the above ideas? Any way to get some SMPS for experimental purposes? An easy way to get those THEL regulators? When can we have an Hypex switched power supply? These could be as simple as a bridged UcD module, if the only objective is to have a regulated supply (will have no power factor correction) or do I see these things to simple.
Best regards
Gertjan
Why is that? The reason why I consider them is as follows:
1. better power factor, a linear supply will draw high peak current, especially when big caps in the power supply are used. I live in a 100V country, so those big current peaks can be an issue and limiting for the performance
2. regulated output voltage, so even if my 100V that I get from the outlet is not that stable or hard, I will still have a pretty stable supply voltage for the power amps
3. I have to feed many amps since I use them in an active system, this means many power supply caps that need to be charged, and therefore, high current peaks as mentioned in 1 as well, when a linear supply is used
Actually, I`m also considering to make a regulated supply (conventional) using the THEL regulator modules. However, those modules may not be so easy to get since I`m located in Japan, can`t order with credit card and so on. What I would do with those modules is to have relatively small caps in front of the regulator and a 20V higher input voltage than needed at the output. The voltage before the regulator will have quite a lot of ripple because the caps would be relatively small, however, that ripple will be regulated away. So after the regulator, I can have bigger caps and a nice stable voltage that is almost load and AC outlet independent. That way, I can again reduce the peak currents that are drawn from my wall outlet.
Any comments on the above ideas? Any way to get some SMPS for experimental purposes? An easy way to get those THEL regulators? When can we have an Hypex switched power supply? These could be as simple as a bridged UcD module, if the only objective is to have a regulated supply (will have no power factor correction) or do I see these things to simple.
Best regards
Gertjan
Anybody have an idea what Jeff Rowland is doing with the ICEpower 1000ASP to achieve such specs?
Model 501 Specs
Output Power
Continuous RMS
8 ohms 500 Watts
4 ohms 1000 Watts
see
http://www.jeffrowland.com/Model 501 Page.htm
Model 501 Specs
Output Power
Continuous RMS
8 ohms 500 Watts
4 ohms 1000 Watts
see
http://www.jeffrowland.com/Model 501 Page.htm
phase_accurate said:
Ok, I'll allow many things to pass, but not this. Good Bass, from a Chord? You've got to be joking. They have no bass and an ear bleeding top end.
Take it from someone with more experience with Chord than anyone else araound ...They use a very noisy unregulated SMPS that has over 4uF of X capacitance across the mains to snub it's own switching noise. The AB amplifier itself is not biased properly. in fact, the bias changes with PSU fluctuations (Ever heard of a VBE multiplier... They haven't!) causing amplifitude modulation distortion. The output MOSFET's are biased at a ridiculous 50mA for 32 devices. (Now there is no way that is class AB) and the units are usually shipped with nearly 2v of HF oscillation. Above 100kHz the amplifier distortion is so bad that it folds down at a near 1:1 ratio, so good luck with an RF nearby!
Charles, if you heard good bass on a Chord, then please, don't ever trust your ears again!
unclemonty said:
I'm pleased that you're amused.
I'm amused that you want to bi-amp these "1000W RMS" "load independant" modules, should get you a clean 250W for at least 20 seconds, if you open the window, for a subwoofer anyway. Now _that_ is amusing.
Further to my amusement, statements like "Seems to have limitlesss power & authority, and a load of detail too." Just read the data sheet and tell me how limitless the power really is. I know, "seems" was the key word right? So it has a bit of dynamic headroom, so what, that term went out of style right along with PMPO did it not? In reality, it can't even come close to half of what their rating claims, let alone across the audio band. So yeah, I'll write that off and never look back. I think you're going after a hugely expensive and sorely dissapointing 300W at best.
Gertjan,
No problems with a SMPS here, at least not if they actually deliver as claimed, like they should, it doesn't save on caps apperently, just on size and weight of transformer. I just wouldn't want to see it come on the module, possibly limiting performance (as below), certainly limiting peoples choices, and causing the price to skyrocket, inversly to reliability, which will plummet. That's only my opinion.
Maybe as an additional module it would be alright, but it might be hard to use properly that way. I know Bruno got funding for working on a real SMPS for audio, his opinion was that non existed that can really do the job, would be most interesting to see what his results were one way or the other.
I support your DIY supply effort.
I'll have to read that SMPS thread, there's alot of ideas in there.
Lots of them with respect to PFC as well. Analogspiceman even provided a few circuits with the UCD in mind.
Regards
Chris
Jeez - this is a tetchy forum! I was only expressing an opinion in reply to the original poster, and comparing sound quality (not measured performance) to Class AB stuff I owned before. So, I did feel partly qualified to speak, as an actual owner of IcePower units, if not a tester. Never mind...
Hows about this then - there's a guy who sometimes posts here, DM Fraser, who actually uses the IcePower units for his companys' products. Surely he'd be a good person to ask about the measured performance?
My entire reason for wanting this kind of technology in my house was to reclaim real estate that large Krell amps had been taking up, to lower my electricity bills, and to keep the house cooler in summer. Oh, I wanted good sound quality too! All of that has been achieved & I'm happy.
I'd still like to bi amp with another set of 1000ASP despite the previous posters' derision for that idea. If anyone tests the 1000ASP then that's great I think. Ultimately if they didn't meet the spec I would probably still go ahead anyway, if the price were right.
From a customers perspective it seems good, successfully implemented technology - I'm happy with the sound, as a former (and current) Krell owner. I guess if some of you are in the industry then the measured performance ultimately is whats important. Whether it's better/worse than UcD/Intersil et al, who knows? If I could buy two boards at a good price I'd be more than happy to let someone here measure & test them as long as I got them back undamaged afterwards.
Regards
unclemonty
Hows about this then - there's a guy who sometimes posts here, DM Fraser, who actually uses the IcePower units for his companys' products. Surely he'd be a good person to ask about the measured performance?
My entire reason for wanting this kind of technology in my house was to reclaim real estate that large Krell amps had been taking up, to lower my electricity bills, and to keep the house cooler in summer. Oh, I wanted good sound quality too! All of that has been achieved & I'm happy.
I'd still like to bi amp with another set of 1000ASP despite the previous posters' derision for that idea. If anyone tests the 1000ASP then that's great I think. Ultimately if they didn't meet the spec I would probably still go ahead anyway, if the price were right.
From a customers perspective it seems good, successfully implemented technology - I'm happy with the sound, as a former (and current) Krell owner. I guess if some of you are in the industry then the measured performance ultimately is whats important. Whether it's better/worse than UcD/Intersil et al, who knows? If I could buy two boards at a good price I'd be more than happy to let someone here measure & test them as long as I got them back undamaged afterwards.
Regards
unclemonty
Hello,
Perhaps I was too harsh? You're perfectly qualified to speak, I never implied you weren't.
It's good to know they sound good, I'm sure they do, and not having heard them, will not dare to say otherwise.
The reason I'll personally turn my back on them is because, according to their own data sheets, they perform far from advertised.
Really, so you have an integrated power supply, let's say with a huge heatsink, that's fan cooled, you can actually squeeze 1000W continuous out of it. You just negated all its benefits(small size, lightweight, efficiency) what's the point?
Their problems with the zobel network... I think, seriously require some attention? Surely Karsten Madsen is capable of addressing these issues, or comming up with an equally good sounding design that doesn't require one, he certainly is no fool.
In the past he's done extensive research, I'd hate to think it ends at this, but I don't see the new versions being improved upon. Why? Maybe because people are buying it as it is, that's just my theory.
I think it's great you gave class d a try, but this isn't the only option out there, and if you compare it to other technologies, it seems to come up short, so with that in mind, I don't really have to hear it to think it sucks, once again, not at all refering to the sound quality of it, just their (false) marketing BS, which I have no tolerance or respect for.
Regards,
Chris
Perhaps I was too harsh? You're perfectly qualified to speak, I never implied you weren't.
It's good to know they sound good, I'm sure they do, and not having heard them, will not dare to say otherwise.
The reason I'll personally turn my back on them is because, according to their own data sheets, they perform far from advertised.
Really, so you have an integrated power supply, let's say with a huge heatsink, that's fan cooled, you can actually squeeze 1000W continuous out of it. You just negated all its benefits(small size, lightweight, efficiency) what's the point?
Their problems with the zobel network... I think, seriously require some attention? Surely Karsten Madsen is capable of addressing these issues, or comming up with an equally good sounding design that doesn't require one, he certainly is no fool.
In the past he's done extensive research, I'd hate to think it ends at this, but I don't see the new versions being improved upon. Why? Maybe because people are buying it as it is, that's just my theory.
I think it's great you gave class d a try, but this isn't the only option out there, and if you compare it to other technologies, it seems to come up short, so with that in mind, I don't really have to hear it to think it sucks, once again, not at all refering to the sound quality of it, just their (false) marketing BS, which I have no tolerance or respect for.
Regards,
Chris
classd4sure said:
Hi Chris,
Thanks for this reply. The power factor correction is the main thing I was after with a switched power supply, and of course the regulation. I don't mind using big transformers and big caps, but I know that the 100V we have here in Japan is not that solid. I see my lights go down a bit when I turn on my Accuphase E407, and I'm quite sure that thing has some sort of inrush limiter. I was actually thnking about buying an active power conditioner (like Accuphase has) that can supply the huge peak currents that occur at the top of the rectified sinewave. This will help me as well but will be far more expensive than a SMPS.
ANyway, maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist. As I use my UcD180 modules right now, they sound very good, so probably I should not worry too much.
Best regards
Gertjan
I have just seen the graphs from B&O showing the max. power vs. time at high (10,15,20KHz). I assume that's due to power dissipation in the Zobel network resistor, isn't it?
Someone pointed to the way they design the zobel network, please, could you tell me where to see that info?
Best regards,
Pierre
Someone pointed to the way they design the zobel network, please, could you tell me where to see that info?
Best regards,
Pierre
1000ASP Transformer
The ICE Power 1000ASP uses a full H bridge on the
primary. The regulator is UCC3808 from TI and others. The IC drives a pair of complementary current boosters which then drive a dual FET for the lower pair and a 3 winding switching transformer as a level translator for the upper pair of FETs.
The drain leads of the upper FETs feed through two windings of a 3 winding transformer on their way to the 120V supply. This is a current monitor for protection purposes.
On the output side, the winding for the main 120V supply has a tap that is connected through an inductor to the 80V output terminal. The 80V output has a 680µFd 100V cap on it. The 120V supply which is also available on an external connector has three 2200µFd 160V caps in parallel.
The main switcher also has a winding for the ±12V outputs and a low voltage winding to supply power to operate the UCC3808.
There is also an output winding with a center tap that appears to not be used. Possibly the transformer is meant for additional models.
The switching transformer core in the 1000ASP is made by Kasche core size ETD44 which is rated for some 800W+ continuous. The power supply is meant to drive the internal 1000W power amp plus a n external 1000A to full power, with music but not sinewaves.
The ICE Power 1000ASP uses a full H bridge on the
primary. The regulator is UCC3808 from TI and others. The IC drives a pair of complementary current boosters which then drive a dual FET for the lower pair and a 3 winding switching transformer as a level translator for the upper pair of FETs.
The drain leads of the upper FETs feed through two windings of a 3 winding transformer on their way to the 120V supply. This is a current monitor for protection purposes.
On the output side, the winding for the main 120V supply has a tap that is connected through an inductor to the 80V output terminal. The 80V output has a 680µFd 100V cap on it. The 120V supply which is also available on an external connector has three 2200µFd 160V caps in parallel.
The main switcher also has a winding for the ±12V outputs and a low voltage winding to supply power to operate the UCC3808.
There is also an output winding with a center tap that appears to not be used. Possibly the transformer is meant for additional models.
The switching transformer core in the 1000ASP is made by Kasche core size ETD44 which is rated for some 800W+ continuous. The power supply is meant to drive the internal 1000W power amp plus a n external 1000A to full power, with music but not sinewaves.
1000ASP Preformance
I operated a sample 1000ASP on the bench delivering 350W average of pink noise into a 4 ohm load for over one hour with no additional heatsink and the metal case stayed below 55°C.
However, higher levels would make the power supply voltage go down to act as a thermal compensation. Much nicer than just shutting down.
However, with 1214W of sine wave, partly into clipping, after about 35 seconds, the output level would drop to about 600W by the protection circuitry. Remember this is with no additional heatsink.
The 200ASC, I was able to operate with sine wave at 100W into 4 ohms continuously. Turning it up, with sine wave, the module would shut down at about 214W.
However, with pink noise at 100Waverage and a 6 db crest factor, the 200ASC would run all day without shut down, until I was tired of tying up one of my Audio Precisions with it. It would also run all day with music, driven hard where the output limiter was set to a peak limit of 210W maximum. That is, the limiter would allow small amounts of clipping. Driven so the limit light in our external optical limiter was on essentially continuously.
We're quite satisfied and will be ordering production quantities of the 200ASC shortly.
I operated a sample 1000ASP on the bench delivering 350W average of pink noise into a 4 ohm load for over one hour with no additional heatsink and the metal case stayed below 55°C.
However, higher levels would make the power supply voltage go down to act as a thermal compensation. Much nicer than just shutting down.
However, with 1214W of sine wave, partly into clipping, after about 35 seconds, the output level would drop to about 600W by the protection circuitry. Remember this is with no additional heatsink.
The 200ASC, I was able to operate with sine wave at 100W into 4 ohms continuously. Turning it up, with sine wave, the module would shut down at about 214W.
However, with pink noise at 100Waverage and a 6 db crest factor, the 200ASC would run all day without shut down, until I was tired of tying up one of my Audio Precisions with it. It would also run all day with music, driven hard where the output limiter was set to a peak limit of 210W maximum. That is, the limiter would allow small amounts of clipping. Driven so the limit light in our external optical limiter was on essentially continuously.
We're quite satisfied and will be ordering production quantities of the 200ASC shortly.
Powersoft
I also just got a sample 500W per channel 2 channel module from Powersoft with integrated power supply with PFC to test. It also has a socket for a DSP to be plugged into it. I'll be looking at this shortly and from the looks of it, I expect good performance from it. I'll start a new thread for the Powersoft one when I have tested it.
I also just got a sample 500W per channel 2 channel module from Powersoft with integrated power supply with PFC to test. It also has a socket for a DSP to be plugged into it. I'll be looking at this shortly and from the looks of it, I expect good performance from it. I'll start a new thread for the Powersoft one when I have tested it.
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